Graviteam

(http://s5.postimage.org/h756x7gyb/sher_pz5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/h756x7gyb/)

Mission review (http://combatace.com/topic/82034-hell-on-wheels-sf-42/) by 33lima.

D/L: http://www.4shared.com/get/SkFLOf8Q/Bridge_Sherman.html

Weight: ~38Mb

INSTALATTION ORDER:

1. Unofficial patch_SF_v0.1_(ENG) (http://tanksim.org.ru/modules/wfdownloads/viewcat.php?cid=17).
2. SPM 1.5 beta (http://www.4shared.com/file/mpfv8bAy/Steel_Panzer_Mod_v15_beta.html)
3. SPM1.5_ultimate_update (http://mycollection.rusfolder.net/files/33963723)
4. Mission Pack 2.0 (http://www.4shared.com/get/cI74Ih2l/Missions_pack_20.html)
5. Upd_Nov_2012(NTA) (http://www.4shared.com/get/ojjC66_c/Upd_Nov_2012_NTA_.html)
6. fix_05 (http://www.4shared.com/get/hkzxEqRy/fix_05_Upd_Nov_2012_NTA_.html)
7. Bridge Sherman
8. Start the game -> Mission Pack 2.0 -> Everything, but the bridge! (‘Sherman’ M4A3-76)

'Fix_05' MUST BE INSTALLED or all 'Panther G' will be without armor! :)

(http://s5.postimage.org/u6pu2kc5v/br002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/u6pu2kc5v/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/vzsqqvxcj/br003.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vzsqqvxcj/)

New AT gun M1 is a very effective against Panthers :) I'm making mission and two AT guns destroyed 3 panthers and even my tank got one shot before all guns were destroyed. Don't mess with M1, especially if er tank is Panther  ::)
(http://s5.postimage.org/hej6iuw7n/01_pz.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hej6iuw7n/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/kzf2230r7/02_pz.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kzf2230r7/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/52ga5d8cz/03_pz.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/52ga5d8cz/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/7xtdc8ccz/04_pz.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7xtdc8ccz/)

Features:
1. It is a first time mission for the USA side.
2. The mission was made at the base of Upd_Nov_2012(NTA) and Mission Pack 2.0.
3. Added English speech to the US soldiers/tank crew.

Testing: Andy

Credits:
-   SF authors
-   SPM 1.5 team
-   SPM 1.5 UU team
-   Donken
-   SHUN
-   yl9961027

PS
Mission included into Mission Pack 2.0

I'd say a more appropriate message would be 'Don't expose your wafer-thin flank armor to it at a measly 400 meters' :p

Edit: Well, I see that the first one bought it at 800, but still, the Panther's side armor provides protection only against PTRDs :<

Agreed, keep the front facing the AT gun and it will never penetrate the Panther.

(http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/Generated/996.jpg?300171)

I've idea to improve a bit a Panther G armor. At this moment there're three panthers G: default, dark, green. So, I'd like to increase for the default armor_str -> 2050(as it was done a long time ago for the jagdpanther), for dark 2025 and for green(late variant) 2000.

Do you think that the in game Panther's armor is weaker than it's real life counterpart?  In my opinion, that would really be the only reason to increase it.

I think armor is OK, but less then jagdpanther.

I've got a couple shots from panther, but I've been lucky and still alive!
(http://s5.postimage.org/7sz9df0r7/sh_01_76.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7sz9df0r7/)

Panther wasn't lucky :D
(http://s5.postimage.org/hrk7zwa6r/sh_02_76.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hrk7zwa6r/)

And finally, this mission will get eng speech/yelling for the us soldiers ;)

Good job! lockie! ;D

But why gunsight isn't M71D?  ???

We need to adjust the Sherman. A PzGr40/42 from a Panther at 300m penetrates over 170mm armor (174mm at 500 meters or 194mm at 100m) and Sherman glacis armor included the slope is around 70mm. So im wondering how the shell didnt penetrate the hull :S :S Same with the turret hit, mantlet 89mm + turret front 60mm. Panther penetrates it with ease :D Your tank should have been knocked out ten times over by now!

Thank u! Without er models (Sherman, AT gun M1) this mission would never be released.

There are two gunsights. I prefer this one ;)

BTW
Do u've a model of US pistol? Coz at this moment US officers use Luger (german).
Suppose soon we will see a gunsight for Pershing ;)

It was pure luck! ;D
90 cases from 100 Sherman knocked out, but sometimes not. Anyway, this mission would be a good testing for both: Panther and Sherman.

Background image added during mission d/l ;)
(http://s5.postimage.org/h756x7gyb/sher_pz5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/h756x7gyb/)

With my pleasure - a several screenings for the upcoming mission:

Don't try to hide erself from my BIG GUN!
(http://s5.postimage.org/7rpbjzyxf/shr_76_01.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7rpbjzyxf/)

U wanna get a victory? Then find a best camo position for er tank!
(http://s5.postimage.org/y1ezgja8j/hide_01.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/y1ezgja8j/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/c3iimqv83/hide_02.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c3iimqv83/)

It's a sweet word - VICTORY!
(http://s5.postimage.org/iihjjf1xv/vic_01.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/iihjjf1xv/)    (http://s5.postimage.org/pa7ym9qxf/vic_02.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pa7ym9qxf/)


PS
It's possible to finish success mission with a next parameters: 3 level enemy, 4 allies, balance 5, i.e 3-4-5

Imho, I think the issue actually stems from the APCR rounds which don't take out tanks reliably enough due to the lack of explosive filler. If anything, they ought to be buffed.

What do u mean issue? Could u be more detailed?

Thnaks both to Lockie and yl9961027 for making this mission possible!

You are kind of correct, for some reason all stuff together with Sherman vs APCR and the lower quality cast steel (casted steel doesnt spall, its to brittle) means it survives more hits in the game and that also means less damages in the tank (usually when hit the spalling destroys all "hitboxes" around the penetration hole. As of now it only destroys hitboxes directly in the shell path. So all together makes it quite good. Problem is this Sherman have a welded hull so we need to change the spalling for it and armor quality.

Well, I've just noticed that the APCR shells ingame seem to have an underwhelming effect on armored targets - I usually stick with the standard Panzergranate, even with the Pz III's long 50, since the APCR shells seem to either bounce off at all kinds of angles or do very little damage even if they do penetrate. Might be just me.

Biggest problem i think with APCRshells is in this game, that when they penetrate there is no damage, only if they directly hit any hitbox. But in real life, if it did penetrate it made tremendous damage, it bounced around inside the tank, and it probably hit lots of crucial stuff inside like cables, pipes, boxes, instruments, ammunition etc, while none of this is modelled or scripted in the game. So a tank that got hit with APCR where rendered useless anyway, but not in SF. If it penetrates and doesnt hit any hitbox nothing happens, like on those screens lockie is showing. Just for the fun of it i modelled the shell trajectory the best i could from lockies screenshot, and there are lots of big places from the front where the shell can enter and go throu the whole tank without touching anything ;)

Sometimes APSC can cause serious damage in the game even if they don't hit anything. It depends on armor frail value.

There are 2 other problems though.

One is sherman gunmask. In my case armor map changes for it don't make any effect. This is a total mystery.  ???

Second is that ricochet value for APSC shells may be set too high. Now the average ricochet value for AP shells is 0.1-0.2 and for APSC shells - 0.4 (the same as in  APOS and vanilla SF). I wonder if this value is correct though.

Are there hit boxes for the tank crew inside the tank?  I guess as someone said, the APCR shell model does not include the spray of fragments inside the tank after the penetration.

I have been playing with the values for the Pzgr40 of the Tiger I decreasing the 0.4 value for ricochet to 0.1 in line with the other shells and increasing the 40 ( nopt sure what it stands for exactly ?Impact? Damage?Penetration?) to 80 and 100 and I noticed that the shells were more effective than before but still much less than the standard AP shells....

Finally, we've release! See first post for d/l link. Don't forget to install fix_05 ;)

Good scenario Lockie.  Very enjoyable.  My only criticism is the mixture of German and English call outs in the Sherman tank.  "We're Hit" is in German, while the rest is in English.
BTW, how do you switch sides in the mission?

Thank u ;)

Unfortunately, I'm lack of eng phrases, that's why I'd to put in what I had.

In the editor there are 4 sides: german, soviet, american, british. Three of them playable and british has only one aircraft.

Lockie why do we need the mission pack 2.0 enabled in order to play your mission?Is it because of the map used in the mission which is not one of the stock ones???

Uh played the mission twice and twice the bridge collapse taking my tank with it into the river.Then the German and American tanks congregated together not shooting at each other???It was like a love-in fest ::)

All the units are blue on the map?????

No wonder, the weight of Sherman is abt ~30 tons, which is too much for the weak wooden bridge ;) I checked T-70. It can go over the bridge.

I think in er game version we've alternative history of the WWII. When German joined with USA and became as allies to fight against Soviet bolsheviks  ;D  :D  ::)

No, it was made to simplify installation. No more additional entry, just install and play.

To fight on equal terms with Panther need Jumbo (M4A2E2) with QF 17 pounder...  :D

This Jumbo looks pretty much the same as M4A3-76.
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/14/13965/thumb_620x2000/M4_76W_Jumbo.jpg)
The M4 Sherman 'Jumbo', which features better armour than the standard M4A3 Sherman

Im not shure exactly what you mean but those are two different tanks, and Jumbo was an M4A3, first with 75mm guns and later the 76mm one (so practically the same tank we have in the game but without the extra armor) and the tank with the QF 17pounder was Fireflys and where built upon all different Shermans by Great Britain but never built upon Jumbo :D

But that would have been the ultimate sherman! Armor as a Panther and with a gun better then on the Kingtiger :D

No the QF17 pdr was not better than the Kwk43 in fact it did not even match the KwK42 in terms of penetration although it could more than match the Kwk 40 L48.

Moreover the QF17 pdr had a well-known problem: it produced a lot of smoke when firing a shell, to the point that the gunner could not see where the shell was hitting because his view was obscured for some seconds by the smoke, and additionally the firing tank was very easy to locate by the enemy due to all that smoke...

It is important to model these effects if we want to have a proper representation of that gun in a tank sim  :)


Txema

BTW, thank you very much for this new mission !!

It is very interesting to be able to play the US side also in Steel Fury !!!


Txema

Ohoo, check gun penetration table of the Qf 17pdr MkII and up with APDS ammo :D It pens roughly 200mm armor at 1000 meter (30 degree plate), wich is more then KwK43 (roughly 190mm at 1000m with Pzgr 40/43, 30 degree plate) :D
Lucky for the Germans that ammo wasnt so common for that gun, but it still shows that the 17pdr with that shell outperformed the long 88 in terms of penetration ;)
Accuracy is another question thou :D There the Kwk43 was king of the hill compared to the 17pdr

Txema, you are correct but how the tank with a gun performs against other tanks is not how the gun performs in terms of penetration or how good the gun in itself is ;)

I think it's possible. Here's a parameter #15 0.75 - a quantity of lifted dust for the gun. If we change 0.75 on 1.5 then dust quantity will be increased.

Where do you see that paragraph?In the Common Res ?

Re QF17 pdr the stats I have are actually similar 193 mm at 1000 metres at 30 degrees angle for the 17 pdr and 192 mm at 1000 metres/30 degrees for the Pzgr 39/43.Both typees of ammo were very rare and seldom use .In addition the Pzgr was capable of inflicting more damage. Anyweay in game it's better to use the standard ammo since the HVAP are worth crap!!!

Yeap, i.e. for the Sherman gun:
76mm_M1,0,%WEAP_RBARRET%,55,76.2,1,0.35,0.1,1,1,0,6,1,1,0.75,shot_76m1,reload_m4a3,,drop1,1,txt_gun_76mm_m1,gun_shot_pat,,76mm_M1;

Thnaks Lockie, it's value I have been trying to tweak but I was  looking at the wrong place in the smoke_shot line... :D

Hi,

Just to make clear, the Sherman Firefly, which made use of the 17-pounder, was a British sub-variant of the Sherman.
The standard 76mm gun used on US Shermans was the M1.

The problem is - APC doesn't has explosive stuff, that's why it doesn't effective in the game. If add at least 50 gram of explosive stuff to the shell, then effectiveness will increase noticeably. But such feature will contradict to realizm ;D

It seems that realism is already contradicted by the inefficacy of the APC round.  I doubt it has a solution other than adding explosive like you said.

I agree! Realism has to be present from the start otherwise you can use artificial methods to reporduce it.Anyway quite a few things are unrealistic as they are....

Would probably be a good idea to buff it in any way you see fit. If it's realistic for it to cause some major damage upon penetration then that's what ought to happen when it does penetrate, as opposed to its current inefficacy.

I think that parameter armor fragility for the Sherman should be increased to 0.4 armor_frail=0.4 (old 0.3), coz fragments almost not effects crew members. But to say the truth, I don't want to do that :)

Its welded armor on it so it should be as on all other tanks with the same armor type, 0.5 atleast :D

Is this what the armour_frail value does?Increases or decreases the incidence of spalling inside a tank????

Yeah. More armor_frail -> more calx/fragments -> more kills/injures
i.e. mostly all soviet tanks has armor_frail=0.7

Great mission, is there a fix for the tracks not showing up on the Sherman with the Winter Mod Beta Maleshkin?

Again thank's.

A Kinetic Weapon Calculator.

http://www.5596.org/cgi-bin/kinetic.php