Graviteam

Ooohh..My main gripe with GTOS was how a tank or two could wipe out platoon after platoon if you had no ATG or tanks when  playing as the germans. More so when a tank would be in a forest surrounded by my little pixel truppen who just kind of ran around it until shot.

Now..today..was my first experience of tank vs inf.   YIPPEE...the tank got to close..and before long it was in flames. Hurrah! My one and only gripe has been vanquished in this game.

You must waiting for the Tank and do nothing in your trench ;)
All Squadmembers take at the same time the hand grenades...

Do you have any idea of what weapon was used against the tank.  Should be something more capable than hand grenades.

This is a terrible mystery that can be found only by Google

No I missed what did it. Tank got real close with in some woods. Wasn't long before it went up..before it had done any real damage anyway. My platoon was experienced and eager. I think but can't quite remember if I issued an assualt order when it got close.

If the tank close and alone in the squad visibility, and the squad has a short-range AT tools (eg AT granate), 1 soldier stands out and runs to the tank and trying to deal with it (automatically if previous order is attack - have attack modifier in GTMF). So it was since the APK43 times.

Andrey all I can say is I never noticed it in GTOS and I'd been more than one occasion where Tanks where right in amongst a platoon in a forest and nothing..yet here we get a result that feels right.

A bit old.  BUT...

You have to check out each squad to see what they have.  Some are vary well equipped with Anti tank stuff.  Some are totally helpless in MIUS.  But after the stink on steam I made it a priority do dink around with these guys in the BIG German campaign.  I killed a lot of t34's was the result.  Although I do think its sort of silly that most infantry anti tank squads of Germans only get like 2 6 stick grenades.  I would think these guys would get the HHL-3 instead.  And the blandenflashe or what ever the molitov the Germans now have in Muis for good measure.  Some line infantry squads are totally loaded with 6 stick grenades.

The Grenade launcher works OK.  But I find it hard to kill t34's with them.  ANd they will not even shoot and KV1 or KV8.  I tried that.  But I do not expect miracles from ww2 grande launchers either. 

Stink about what?  And what do you mean by "dink" around with these guys?

Hello,

If infantry with small arms could handle tanks easily, or even regularly, with the same generation equipment, tanks would have  already disappeared from the battlefield. Generally, even modern man-portable weapons are no guarantee against same generation tanks.

When and if it does become that situation, one side will be caught horribly off guard, and warfare will again as always be changed.


regards,

Man portable anti tank weapons are not small arms. 
There are never guarantees but the Israeli experience in it's most recent incursion into southern Lebanon illustrates the effectiveness  of portable (relatively) anti tank weapons in constricted areas.  As you say they are responding by developing automated anti missile defense systems for their armor.

GTOS has a history of single, unaccompanied, buttoned up tanks assaulting German trenches or infantry in forested areas at night and destroying them.  This is aberrant behavior.  No tank crew men would behave this way. The German infantry in game was supine in the face of this behavior.  IRL Japanese infantry with no anti tank weapons other than high explosives and gasoline would occasionally successfully knock out Sherman tanks (most especially ones that had been stripped of infantry cover) in some of the island fighting in WW2

Yes, Russian tanks are break at night in the woods, everybody knows.  ;D


What really the Japanese so strong that they can break the tank armor with their bare hands?

Did you not see that part about high explosives and gasoline Andrey or did you just ignore it?

Are you saying that Russian crews were stupid enough to take a solitary tank into an enemy position at night in the woods without infantry support?  That's what they do in the game but I don't think they would do that in real life.

Well the game generally attempts to take infantry along. If they are around and able.  A player can  easily, in Mius strip or cause infantry to fall behind by artillery or direct fire.

The stink on steam I refer to was a thread where tons of people where complaining about infantry being helpless to tanks. It can be both true and untrue.  If you use infantry that have anti tank weapons well, using good tactics and conditions, you can kill tanks.  For the large Red Army campaign, I do not think I ever got into a spot where I even needed to go infantry VS tank.  In the German one, absolutely did.   Killed tanks with the 6 stick grenades, satchels, HHL-3, the 45mm grenade launcher thing and  even regular rifle fired 30 mm grenade...once.  For light tanks, machine gun and rifle fire. The German Molotov thing, I only saw on 1 squad of soldiers and used 1 time, it did not work out. 

But generally, there are SO many anti tank guns and large howitzer types that the need to go infantry VS tanks is sort of not needed.  With that said, more anti tank grenades out there with the infantry is not a bad thing.  Some platoons have no anti tank at all.  Now, some should indeed not have any, but the player needs to look to see what the infantry have and not expect that all infantry have things able to do anything.  I would not mind seeing more anti tank squads threw out the reserve pool.  With better weapons than 6 stick grenades, at least for Germans. 

I'm talking about GTOS Flashburn.  I've had plenty of cases where tanks in pairs or just singles overrun German trenches and slaughter the troops that just keep popping up and down in the trenches and get mowed down.  The tanks are right on top of them, not 200 meters away.

Ah... That.

But is largely the same thing.  Why did you let armor get that close to your infantry?  I would have popped smoke if nothing to fight them with.  But how many times have I killed tanks with infantry in GTOS for both times?  A lot.  But always looked to see what they had.  No anti tank, they are not sticking around to get mowed down. 

But a few more anti tank grenades is a good thing.  And why a platoon leader gets an HHL-3 never made a damned bit of sense.  With is an LT. charging a tank with an anti tank mine anyways?  :P

(https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8577498368/hC923D170/)

Yes..but there was also a reason why Tanks wouldn't attack into woods and where unsafe in Urnam enviroments...because Inf could get up close and personal and take it out..in '43 they ahd magnetic mines..plus up close in forest a grenade through a vision slit would be enough..

WWII tanks have a closed slits via glassblocks or periscopes or stroboscopes. Throw a grenade at them is extremely difficult, even if they were open - just do not get through. In forest too... :D

Forest, city, hedgerows, it doesn't matter.  Tanks are vulnerable by themselves in such environments.

The smoke is a good idea.  Why did I let the tanks get that close?  Let's see, no anti tank weapons,and the tanks appeared in mg range suddenly.  Who gets out of a perfectly good trench and runs across an open field in clear view of a tank and it's weapons?  Trenches and foxholes (GTOS does not create those) should be adequate protection against mg fire and against tank HE shells (except direct hit). 

But you are missing the point.  Why do individual, buttoned (almost blind) tanks unaccompanied by infantry approach entrenched enemy infantry?  And why don't the entrenchments provide more protection against mg fire than they do?  The real point is this ai behavior and the vulnerability of entrenched infantry to tank fire, not my tactical prowess.

That a Japanese soldier Andrey?  Nice find!!

I think US soldier, apparently avatar of someone from those who believe that ordinary soldiers could destroy the tanks in batches  ;D

Should the tank to come into the forest and it will be destroyed?  You do not think that you forget that still needs an AT weapon in the same place/range?

Andrey...in a forest the Tank has very little manueverbility. Infantry cna easily sneak up on a tank and a few well placed grenades will eithe rimmobilise it or destroy it. Many times Russian tanks broke through the German lines..only to be taken out by tank hunter engineer sqauds..and this was in '42. Jason marks book Into Oblivion mentions this srt of action a few times on the way to the Don bend. It usually happened in Forests. This also was just before the inritduction on magnetic mines. Instead they used normal Anti Tank mines or grenade bundles.

No one here I'm sure thinks Inf could take out Tanks in batches. However in certain enviroments it was extremely risky for Tanks. You could also say to many think the Tank was immune to Infantry.  Stalingrad and Cholm both show how Inf in Urban enviroments was bad news for tankers. Where it's possible for infantry to get close enough to attach mines or use grenade bundles then that's not a place a Tank should be.

Forests where always flushed out by Infantry for a reason.

What type of grenades?


The bend of the Don is not a lot of forests, mildly speaking - as there steppe.

Let's not quote storytellers. Let us specific examples where and when that confirmation by the enemy.

If the infantry have Anti tank grenades, they most certainly can kill tanks.  In forests is perfect for this, and it can work if they can get close enough.  

People seem to think tanks are really blind.  There are blind spots for sure.  But you have to get to them.  Which means getting with in like, 15 meters.  That is, under the periscopes vision range. And I would point out, that if its a type where you can adjust the mirror you can always move it to see a bit better close in.  In front of the tanks turret, the game is probably more generous than reality.  But some tanks are better than others at this.  A panzer 3 or 4 with its excellent cupola gives great 360 degree vision.  All the commander has to do is remember to scan and not get fixed for to long on one thing.   Now, an early t34 is no where near as good.   It does get a periscope that turns 360, but you have to turn the thing manually.  And how you see behind you is going to be an issue unless commander is really flexible.  If you can sneak in infantry in MIUS, not quite the same in GTOS, within really close range, the tank is pretty much blind to them on the rear and flanks.  Sent enough infantry that close in to see that they do not get targeted there.  Gun might swing over, but tanks seem to not see them.  But with tanks that are have not gotten tracks blown off or some such, the tank will often figure out where infantry are and turn the hull towards them.  And the guys in the lower hull up front most certainly see them.  

I did serve on retro armored cars in a combat zone.  These things where pretty primitive and where more like ww2 tanks than modern fighting vehicles.  Like no stabilized gun, a simple fire control system that used manual elevation and power traverse using a freaking 25 cent toggle switch, 360 degree periscopes and only a night vision sight for night.  We used spot lights mainly.  But this stupid thing did give me a retro look at ww2 fighting vehicles and how they did their thing.  Let me tell you, an M1117 is nothing like an M3a2 or M3a3 Bradley scout fighting vehicle.   :P

Mius Front tank killing. Or trying too, with infantry.  Where I remembered to try and take screens.  

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999494781988/3D239C5C520C7CE43044767860CA0CB107199FF5/)

HHL-3...

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999494812419/91035F8A1968D749EDB5653A5AF7AB7ED8DE81BA/)

Flame thrower..   :P  Not exactly an anti tank weapon.  But it works!
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999498524784/747B8B216159D1FBD3520D5F0BE308FB54D5E28B/)

45mm anti tank grenade from launcher.  

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999502252382/980B3139E4A166C5940BC4485B7C515128ABA2D8/)

Satchel charge from pioneers.
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999502276895/9320ACE93C9634CCAB2F55F96C7FE6449C9A8D7F/)

More satchel charges...

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999502299808/2B68C0B5A10C2F380831843EF245176350DCFAAF/)

Satchel that got hung up on fence, next blew track off.  
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999502431194/08A433A17C3FFEB4422B78677ABC332C9651B0C5/)

Killed with 2 HHL-3's.  A weapon too rare in MIUS IMO...

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510762795/4C35AE6BC97B4104783C1C685D8282078476EDA2/)

Not sure.  Probably an HHL-3.  But could have been a grenade launcher.  Or even 6 stick grenade.  Whatever it was it worked.
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510764958/3AF8FD2D291284EC3839862E82CB849B8D93D8B7/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510766891/B94C71C614193BCDDC1BDBA8783EF7944A4CC713/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510770214/51DF68CB053D89E5EB67F41DAAFA061999D5F204/)

KV was totally blind here.  And where it was finally killed from.  

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510778087/6DEE341FDD10A21E2D3884FE8BD6E8D97C3BA439/)

30mm rifle fired grenade launcher.  and what finally started an engine fire somehow.

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510781471/B1486E6A6012D7611963F4973CBADF325EEF8D82/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/496891999510782597/8FFDFB43CFB88B783C600D607E0839CDF2267A8A/)

All killed with infantry anti tank weapons.

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626350621873948/F1FAD180B9B3F69DB3E257D21CFB6FAD77FEB568/)

More improper use of flame thrower.

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626350622125150/BB81721D9F37E0E7F791A880C1E32165327DC3CA/)

Another tank killed with flame thrower.   :-\

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626350630122184/1421B7638DE7D8C9F9FBAE1F58D084E173C75E10/)

This attacked failed.  I should have come in from rear.  But grenade squad fired like 30 45mm anti tank grenades at this guy.  But they all lived threw in.  Used recon (with modifiers) command to sneak in.  

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626350630121283/25F7FE0B1539E17140BAC8642D3650B8E3E2E5E5/)

mobility killed....

Others too, like Red Army engineers I used on a bunch of Marders.  But forgot to take screens.  

But I do think to few anti tank grenades out there.  But when they DO  have them, if used right, it works.  Note, that most of this infantry VS tank was at night.  Darker the better.  During day, where I set up positions where a tank would have a hard time seeing them in trenches/buildings.  And far enough away, while still close to main infantry to not get suppressed if main position gets spotted or engaged.  Not always easy this one...

A (not real) movie with inf vs tank...
https://youtu.be/OVvoo1qFPDo?t=3m51s

As I stated earlier in the post that you misinterpreted or ignored, of course some weapon is needed.  That is obvious and does not need saying.  That weapon could be improvised however.  Examples are TNT, gasoline, track jamming.

@Flashburn: those are encouraging screen shots.  Maybe things have changed in MF.  I never really saw such action from German infantry in GTOS.

Do you feel that entrenched infantry is too vulnerable to mg fire?

Hello,

In general, attacking tanks using infantry with small arms, is not a tactic. It is a situational necessity or act of desperation.
In general, attacking infantry with small arms using tanks, is an excellent tactic.

regards,

True, as far as it goes. 
Again satchel charges, grenade bundles andAT grenades are not small arms. 
The discussion at hand is not about tactics, it is precisely about the situational necessity of a tank approaching an entrenched infantry position that the infantry does not wish to retreat from.

Attacking infantry in the open using tanks is an excellent tactic.  Attacking entrenched infantry may be less so.  Generally tanks alone would not be sufficient to root out an entrenched and determined infantry force.  That's why combined arms is used.

Machine gun is a basic weapon to infantry suppression. In the trenches or not, when the infantry under heavy machine-gun fire, it binds its actions. And, accordingly, no question that the soldiers run on the tanks.
This is done in both GTOS and GTMF

Small small
all this things have a very limited range. Tank even moving at ~20 km/h speed cross this range for a few seconds and there is no chance to change something.


This "combined arms" called artillery :)
Combined arms infantry is used to take ground in most cases.

Sure I can agree it would suppress them but not kill them if they don't expose themselves.  In GTOS they are always standing up and getting killed.  That means you don't need infantry to assault their position only tanks because they will all stand up and be killed by tanks.

We have been talking about stationary tanks, surrounded by enemy infantry.  I would agree that moving tanks would be much less vulnerable to these types of weapons.

In GTOS I don't need infantry to take ground.  All I need is some artillery and some tanks.  The entrenchments seem to provide very little cover.  The tanks are great killers of entrenched infantry.
I wonder how the 101st Airborne Division held on so well in Bastogne.

This is a rare case, and so that it occurs, does not need any forest, bushes or buildings.

Practically zero, unless if every soldier have such AT tools, and all this soldiers have steel balls are placed thickly on the tank way.

This is not so, as tanks and artillery have a poor caps to capture squares.

They provide shelter as they should. It is not wonderful armor, 99% of the cover is given the possibility to hide behind a small ground screen.

Yes, they have weapons with much more range than any soldier with a grenade or mine.
Therefore, the best AT tool for infantry it is AT gun.

Yes, you can take into account grenades, but in the extreme case, it is essentially a last chance weapon. They gives some moral stability, but difficult to use.

Agreed

Took some doing but finally killed some German tanks with Red Army soldiers.  Engineers in this case.  Has to be SOME soldiers with RPG-40 in big campaign, but not found even one yet.  Not even going to try and use KS bottles on buttoned up tanks.  No faith that it will work.  But Marders.... oh my yes.  Where are you Marders. 


(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626985709906442/F111F957DD8EE5F249B7BA25302058A19438FD93/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/476626985709926578/69FB1494F7C80832A7824252A85068DCC219B0D1/)

I lost freaking 4 T34's to a couple pak 40 75mm.  But was able to kill one panzer 3 and mob kill the other 2 before I was able to get the left overs out.  So sent in an engineer squad to deal with them.  It worked.  7 charges. 2 dead tanks and 1 member of squad killed in blast I think.  Or something.  Hope they got a medal. 

Flashburn..love those screenshots. I reckon it would have taklen alot of time and patience to get this many if playing GTOS. GTMF has def improved in this area.

In GTOS is practically the same. Just Flashburn apparently learned to use infantry AT tools  :D