Graviteam

English-speaking community => Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front => Topic started by: orson on August 20, 2018, 07:31:28 PM



Title: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: orson on August 20, 2018, 07:31:28 PM

 Never been too happy with the German MG , even in its own dug out , they never last too long once they start to receive incoming fire . The way the gunner kneels above the gun , not very realistic . The sustained fire role has a separate trigger low down on the frame so the operator can stay low .

Since the new maps came out , I notice there are many new options for deploying MG's to try and increase longevity . The large craters are useful for MG's and mortars , still vulnerable to lobed weapons like mortar but they withstand direct fire far better .
 I find the trick is finding a depression or raised bank to hide the crew , set the deployment point right on the lip and if the stars align , you can get a decent MG position that should last a while .
A few examples .

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/967598948485062687/ED18693A19B67BFC0EC8ABBDE8ABF9872B1600EB/)
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/966469933773263294/4945E02C527543152AD42C8AF4F5134E1E678047/)
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/967598616000312848/6625B65C350AA8D83F95B6036D0EE78106CEFB04/)
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/967598948485005645/120BBA895F014155F2C8151DD6581B038BDFF83A/)
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/967598948485059639/BFD16F9A75DD47BC8797E7847E808AE639C05286/)


Title: Re: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: waypoint on August 20, 2018, 07:57:31 PM
The way the gunner kneels above the gun , not very realistic . The sustained fire role has a separate trigger low down on the frame so the operator can stay low .
What do you mean? An MG 34 tripod had telescopic sights mounted almost at the same height as the mechanical ones.

(http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-infantry-weapons/pics/34-german-mg34-on-tripod.jpg)
(http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-infantry-weapons/pics/37-german-mg34-in-action.jpg)


Title: Re: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: orson on August 20, 2018, 08:54:33 PM
Place one on flat ground and see if it resembles the picture you posted .


Title: Re: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: waypoint on August 20, 2018, 09:51:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/WZODzew.png)

Yeah, i see what you mean. To resemble the picture i posted the tripod needs to be adjusted to lift the MG higher. However, IRL it was also possible to get it lower and use it from a prone position, as pictured below. It's likely the developers went for something in the middle so that they don't have to code an adjustable tripod that works properly in any terrain. Perhaps it could be better if they allowed the gunner to get prone when he can see the target from the prone position, don't even need to adjust the tripod.

(https://i.imgur.com/0fQirAk.jpg)

I was wondering what did you mean about the "trigger low down on the frame" and how would that allow operator to stay low, while he also needs to use the sights a lot of the time. I think the modern tripods for the MG 3 got some kind of trigger mechanism and a periscope style telescopic sight and this allows the gunner to keep his head lower than the gun.  But did the MG 34 tripods have those?


Title: Re: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: orson on August 21, 2018, 05:23:53 PM
The Lafette was designed with the remote paddle trigger with just the purpose of the operator able to sight the weapon in and then duck down low and use the trigger .
When an MG like this is in a heavy tripod like the Lafette , it is locked into position , the operator uses dials to tune it left or right /up and down . The tripod is usually pegged down to a designated compass point , so the squad leader can accurately pre-plan fire zones .
Not so important to "aim" the mg34 - 42 , they just hose down the area .

About the MG 42 , I think its way past time to see it in game .
waaaaait a minute , that looks like a 42 in the picture you posted !  :o
https://i.imgur.com/WZODzew.png


So , A proposed small fix .
Currently when you deploy the MG , the model ( gunner + MG ) rotates around the weapon center , this means if your guy was in a trench , and he aims left or right , he pivots out of the trench .
I think if you put the pivot at the gunner , then he would rotate the gun around him and remain in cover .
This would need 2 pivot points , one for the tripod and one for moving the whole thing , probably not possible . :-X
Unless you treat the MG + Gunner as a Stug for example , this can rotate on the spot and also traverse the gun left and right .


Title: Re: German MG 34 support weapon deployment
Post by: waypoint on August 21, 2018, 10:23:10 PM
Yeah, i agree about the fix.
And yes, the MG-42 was added in one of the patches.  ;D

The Lafette was designed with the remote paddle trigger with just the purpose of the operator able to sight the weapon in and then duck down low and use the trigger .
The prone MG crew on the photo seems to not be using this feature to it's full potential  :)

When an MG like this is in a heavy tripod like the Lafette , it is locked into position , the operator uses dials to tune it left or right /up and down .
An M3 Tripod for .50 cal also has a Traverse & elevation mechanism, which can also be used to engage preplanned targeted areas. However the mg itself still can be controlled directly by a gunner. And M240 also has a T&E mechanism on its tripod, but the gunner still aims and can engage point targets.

The tripod is usually pegged down to a designated compass point , so the squad leader can accurately pre-plan fire zones.
Wouldn't they get a sector of fire, where they would be responsible to engage any targets within it? The sectors would stretch quite far and wide, how would you engage any new targets outside you preplanned fire zones if you don't aim?

Not so important to "aim" the mg34 - 42 , they just hose down the area.
You would still need to aim at the target, the cone of fire and the beaten zone are not that large and of course they would not cover your whole sector.

Imagine a wide and deep target moving towards the gun, such as an attacking squad of infantry with individuals moving in short rushes. Or maybe even a platoon with several such squads, with individuals popping up here and there and their own MG's getting deployed to support the attack. How would you possibly fire at them effectively without using sights and adjusting your point of aim constantly?   

Also, according to http://www.bergflak.com/lafette/Construction.html
"The trigger mechanism sits in the inside right wall of the frame with the weapon mounts. It is adjustable for automatic/semi-automatic fire by pushing down the serrated button on top or pushing it back up again."
An MG-34 had semi-auto firing mode, so the lafette even seems to be built to allow for single shot aimed fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWteeEC90Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWteeEC90Q)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LDdEOycSZ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LDdEOycSZ4)

As you can see they shoot the MG-34 and 42 using the sights, with left hand at the elevation wheel and right hand at the handle with the paddle trigger, this handle could also be used for sideways movement. At the second video the aim is clearly adjusted several times.

Considering all this i doubt that preplanned fire with the gunner not using the sights was the the main way of doing things.
Do you have any documents or other reading material that would describe german mmg operating procedures?