Buildings in town

[whukid]

Wow, that's a big building! Any reasons for starting so big?

Well, first i want to test real "city battles", Imagine the last month in ww2 when they where fighting in Berlin. Kind of like that is what i want to test first. So the buildings i have atm are mostly "Berlin" buildings. Thats why it is so big

This made my night.

[Estnische]

Sacrilege! Destroying Berlin?Fighting from a church????You are both being banned by Punkbuster!Stated reason" You displeased Frinik"

But its only to get rid of that pesky Amerikanische sniper!

[whukid]

Sacrilege! Destroying Berlin?Fighting from a church????You are both being banned by Punkbuster!Stated reason" You displeased Frinik"

But its only to get rid of that pesky Amerikanische sniper!

(flashforward 50 years) The SPG doesn't get authorization from the German high command to fire on a religious structure, lest it piss off the population. Eventually, the sniper uses up all the ammo at his disposal and falls to his death on the way down. (Que obvious correlation to the Iraq conflict)

haha anyways, I am really looking forward to this. Is there a way to garrison infantry in buildings?

[Donken]

Whukid: Yes it is, both as passengers and crew, Me and lockie is gonna cheat a little and dont make the buildings as "buildings". We are gonna use the same technique as on the Bunkers (DOT:s).
That way its making this alot less complicated. Downside is you cant destroy the buildings (only kill the "crew" in them). But i have a few ideas about that also im gonna test with.

And also good news, I have done a little counting in 3dsmax and with an ol' good calculator and with LoDs and if i attach buildings to eachother in max and make 6 buildings to 1 element and with lods we can probably fill a whole map with buildings. Atleast cover it by 1x1km. of course im gonna test with a 2x2km also!
Exemple:

Building1 - lod1 = 360vertices and 660 polys
               lod2 = 130vertices and 180 polys
               lod3 = 26vertices and 31 polys

And that is one of the more "advanced" buildings. The least advanced one have 12 vertices and 15 polys at lod3. So placing like 100 of them on a map shouldnt slow down the simulation at all.
Compared to tank igm: Panther A are made of 34000 vertices and 39000 polys.

[Kyth]

gonna cheat a little and dont make the buildings as "buildings". We are gonna use the same technique as on the Bunkers (DOT:s).

Just a thought,
If there were some way to make the buildings' hit-boxes enclose a hollow area, you could have infantry, guns and vehicles located within, and have them recognized as building objects instead of tanks,

[Donken]

What do you mean Kyth? I dont understand

[frinik]

I think Kyth means to say that currently the buildings present in the game only have hit boxes for the outside since nothing is allowed to go inside as for all intent and purposes the buildings are collapsible but cannot be accessed by the infantry.

[Kyth]

I think Kyth means to say that currently the buildings present in the game only have hit boxes for the outside since nothing is allowed to go inside as for all intent and purposes the buildings are collapsible but cannot be accessed by the infantry.

Yes, I guess I wasn't very clear

The buildings in the game are set up as solid blocks, so you can't place anyone inside.
What if they were hollow, like the real things? With openings for doors and windows, and multiple storeys.
That might be a better solution, instead of having tanks masquerading as buildings.

[lockie]

In fact, in the game all buildings-tanks(there're only DOT's) identifies by AI as "MG point" and it's quite clear, coz DOT's means exactly MG. "Tank" means a specific way how to place a building in the game.

[Kyth]

Yes I understand the point you're making.

Just wondering of there's any better way, to put infantry in buildings. It's worth considering, I think,

There are some disadvantages to the current method:

- The 'crew-places' for the buildings will be fixed. i.e. MG will always be at Window A, Infantry always at Balcony B, ATgun at Doorway C, etc. etc. which would eliminate the 'element of surprise' in city fighting.

- The tactical map will display these buildings as 'tanks', with the little diamond symbols, which is rather distracting and misleading.

I haven't experimented on this, so maybe this is actually the only possible way to do it?

[lockie]

There are some disadvantages to the current method:
- The 'crew-places' for the buildings will be fixed.

It's not a problem, coz i.e. tanks also has fixed MGs and guns.

- The tactical map will display these buildings as 'tanks', with the little diamond symbols, which is rather distracting and misleading.

Nope.

[Kyth]

There are some disadvantages to the current method:
- The 'crew-places' for the buildings will be fixed.

It's not a problem, coz i.e. tanks also has fixed MGs and guns.

You missed the 2nd part of my point: The lack of randomness.

MG will always be at Window A, Infantry always at Balcony B, ATgun at Doorway C, etc. etc. which would eliminate the 'element of surprise' in city fighting.

As you may have noticed, tanks have some mobility, and they can turn up at different places, different times. I don't think buildings have that option 

I'm proposing an alternative, i.e. new buildings with internal rooms, where various units can be deployed, with some random probability of appearance.

It's worth considering, unless we know for sure that it's impossible in the game, 

[Donken]

Maybe random crews in buildings can be fixed anyway. Is it possible to make dummys appear random under randoms() in the xxx.engcfg files? That way the "crews" inside the buildings appear random by default if it works.

[frinik]

I like Kyth's suggestion.Randomness defintely sounds more appealing than the predictable. It would also make urban battles more exciting and  dangerous for the tanks.Imagine putting panzerschreck teams with a random probability of appearance.

[lockie]

There're some teasers from master Donken
      

[Donken]

MG will always be at Window A, Infantry always at Balcony B, ATgun at Doorway C, etc. etc. which would eliminate the 'element of surprise' in city fighting.

As you may have noticed, tanks have some mobility, and they can turn up at different places, different times. I don't think buildings have that option 

I'm proposing an alternative, i.e. new buildings with internal rooms, where various units can be deployed, with some random probability of appearance.

It's worth considering, unless we know for sure that it's impossible in the game, 

I have also thought about this, but i havent figured it out yet to make it totally random.
But if i understand you correct Kyth you mean like this, that if i make the house hollow it is possible to order infantry by script? to go into that hollow space and fire from there?
I have no knowledge or experiance with the mission editor so i have no idea how ai vehicles/infantry behave or what they can do with scripts and triggers and all for me unknown names. So all your help is most welcomed

A few questions to map makers: Is it possible to make the game choose a tank or platoon random in a countour? If yes one thing i can do is to make different sets of the same building but with different crews inside. and with each different battle there is a random house. That way we dont know if and what troops there are inside.
Or is it possible to make a tank/bunker/field gun neutral and then order a platoon to mount that item and use it? Thats another possibility to make stuff appear random.

And Kyth, you have experiance to import buildings and make them work. Do you know the limitations of sizes of the buildings, and is it a must to have them destroyable. Im not shure just yet what technique is the best to use for the buildings. There are limitations in so many ways.
I need to think about polycount (so not so many parts or small parts if destroyable) and the total polycount. The limit for techniques for each side on the map (130 pieces of equipment i think lockie mentioned) So because of that i need to attach 5 or more houses to eachother to make them as one piece.

But all ideas or thoughts everyone have is most welcome. The more the merrier

On the third picture i took in lockies thread above this, the square with buildings consist of 12 pieces (its easy to make them 4 pieces if the game engine can handle it) and they cover a 300x300m square, According to that it should be very much doable to cover a whole map with buildings and still only have a low piece count.

[lockie]

Is it possible to make the game choose a tank or platoon random in a countour?

Yes.

If yes one thing i can do is to make different sets of the same building but with different crews inside.

Easy money. U can set up tank with a chance from 0 to 100% of appearing on the map.

and with each different battle there is a random house. That way we dont know if and what troops there are inside.

It's possible and goes without saying, but with a random appearing there's always a chance that building wont appear at all.

Or is it possible to make a tank/bunker/field gun neutral

Theoretically it's possible, but we need to investigate more.

[Donken]

Well, it is a must that the buildings must appear 100% of the time. But i meant just about the crew, if you can make them appear random in a tank. And also by making it random in a countour, same there, i meant not random if it appear or not, just random between two different techniques, but one of them is always there to 100%. only wich one of them must be random

[lockie]

But i meant just about the crew, if you can make them appear random in a tank.

Nope, according to my experience it's impossible. Tank crew always has a file description: tank_places.engcfg

just random between two different techniques, but one of them is always there to 100%. only wich one of them must be random

Nope, it's impossible to do such thing, of course, according to my experience.

[Kyth]

Whew a lot of questions, some replies,

I have also thought about this, but i havent figured it out yet to make it totally random.
But if i understand you correct Kyth you mean like this, that if i make the house hollow it is possible to order infantry by script? to go into that hollow space and fire from there?
I have no knowledge or experiance with the mission editor so i have no idea how ai vehicles/infantry behave or what they can do with scripts and triggers and all for me unknown names. So all your help is most welcomed

It sounds logical.
I figure that the game has some kind of collision-detection for all the buildings. But if you configure some empty spaces and openings (doors, I mean  ) which aren't covered by 'collision-boxes', the infantry could enter and position themselves there.

If you notice, they don't have any problem moving between and around trees,

A few questions to map makers: Is it possible to make the game choose a tank or platoon random in a countour? If yes one thing i can do is to make different sets of the same building but with different crews inside. and with each different battle there is a random house. That way we dont know if and what troops there are inside.
Or is it possible to make a tank/bunker/field gun neutral and then order a platoon to mount that item and use it? Thats another possibility to make stuff appear random.

Yes its possible to have a random tank appear in a contour. There's a "randoms()" section in the common-units file that you could set up the random tanks in a platoon.

And Kyth, you have experiance to import buildings and make them work. Do you know the limitations of sizes of the buildings, and is it a must to have them destroyable. Im not shure just yet what technique is the best to use for the buildings. There are limitations in so many ways.
I need to think about polycount (so not so many parts or small parts if destroyable) and the total polycount. The limit for techniques for each side on the map (130 pieces of equipment i think lockie mentioned) So because of that i need to attach 5 or more houses to eachother to make them as one piece.

The destruction model can be simplified down to just one or two fragments, if you wish. I find that if they're assigned the "stone" material, they're quite tough and durable.