Suppression Fire

[Docjones]

I have an armored car, infantry gun and light tank positioned in front of a row of buildings.  Light gun fire is coming from two of the buildings.  I can see flashes in the windows when they fire.  My units have line of sight to the flashes, but will not fire to suppress the units, so I don't want to move up infantry.  How do I suppress fire coming from buildings?

Docjones

[Mark Jonzo]

Assuming your units have H.E. rounds can't you order them to area fire on the buildings?

[GBS]

One of the few things the game is missing in my view is the ability to directly order individual units to "area fire", even when an enemy can't be seen. This would alow you to have a squad suppress while another moves and vice cersa.

[benpark]

I think the developers believe this is too much micro-management at a low level (squad)- which I would disagree with until there is an "attack" order by platoon (being the scale I think the game is intended for) where suppression fire could be set on a target while some squads move up. 

[andrey12345]

One of the few things the game is missing in my view is the ability to directly order individual units to "area fire", even when an enemy can't be seen. This would alow you to have a squad suppress while another moves and vice cersa.

It's totall unrealistic feature (and so it was removed). If your unit don't see enemy, why it can shot to it? Magic vision? 

In game (and in real life) indirect fire realized through external targeting by platoon commander or spotter.

Page 44 in tactical manual

[russkly]

Hi Andrey,

I think what GBS means is the following, for example:

Infantry platoon attack on small village.
Enemy MG identified OR even only suspected in one building
1 section lays down suppressing fire on the building, preventing effective return fire from the MG or from any possible occupants.
2 & 3 sections assault.

Hope I haven't put incorrect words in GBS' mouth!

R

PS  Great game, and it's a shame you can't promote it more.  For me it has eclipsed CM:BN - I bought the Commonwealth module but have been glued to APOS.

[oho]

How can I set the target (for example some trenches) for a mortar in a SDKFz so that it moves until the target is in view and then fire at the longest distance of the mortar. If I press the --> attack button it moves until it reaches the trenches which is suicidal.

[Tac Error]

Select the commander of the mortar platoon, press "G" and click where you want the fire and the commander will direct the fires of his mortars on that spot. Accuracy will depend on distance, commander experience and if the guy can see the spot being targeted.

[andrey12345]

How can I set the target (for example some trenches) for a mortar

Full description of indirect fire in tactical manual pages 64-70

in a SDKFz so that it moves until the target is in view and then fire at the longest distance of the mortar. If I press the --> attack button it moves until it reaches the trenches which is suicidal.

Yes attack is a sort of movement orders. And if you order it, unit will move to selected direction.
Tactical manual pages 35-40

[fireship4]

It's totall unrealistic feature (and so it was removed). If your unit don't see enemy, why it can shot to it? Magic vision?  Grin

In game (and in real life) indirect fire realized through external targeting by platoon commander or spotter.

I'm sorry Andrey, but here you are wrong and it is one of the things that hurts the game the most as a simulator.

Suppressing fire is one of the most fundamental parts of ground tactics, integral to manoeuvre - for the proof consult any infantry field manual on the subject.  In regards to infantry, suppressing fire may be used against (for example):

# A currently visible target, to destroy, demoralise, pin down (or push into cover) and prevent return-fire
# A target which was visible but has moved behind cover/concealment (even out of sight), to keep them there and to prevent return-fire
# Suspected enemy positions where no enemy has been spotted.
# Areas through which you which to prevent or impede enemy travel (not exactly suppressing fire).

Note that none of these are necessarily indirect fires.  Neither do they necessarily have to be ordered by anyone.  The automatic rifleman in a US Army infantry fireteam does not need to be told to surpress an enemy who is a danger to himself or others.

I do agree that there is a problem here for a game of this sort - that the player sees the enemy and can tell a squad to surpess an area in the middle of nowhere that they could not possibly have known contains enemies, or some similar situation.

But something must be done - because the AI cannot simulate suppressing fire correctly and what has been chosen for the game at the moment is to effectively remove suppressing fire from the game, and therefore hurt the game's claim to being a military simulator - until then it will always be something other sims do better (CM being the best example).

For example, you could begin with:

#  Allowing the AI to shoot at any position where an enemy was previously sighted and may still be close (the function is already in-game as the little yellow man), but giving these targets lower priority than visible targets.

#  Allowing player to direct infantry/vehicle fires onto any area in which an enemy has been sighted during the game.

This would be a starting point, and would ease the current problems, but it still leaves the problem of firing on suspected positions, and positions across which you want to prevent the enemy moving - for this reason it may be better in the end to allow covering fire at any point visible to the unit selected, even though this may mean they can fire on a unit that someone else has spotted but they have not.  It should at least be an option in the menu.

If anyone else has suggestions please go ahead...

[Tac Error]

Lost in translation? Andrey, I think what people mean by suppression, they mean something like "podavlenie" in Russian.

[andrey12345]

Lost in translation? Andrey, I think what people mean by suppression, they mean something like "podavlenie" in Russian.

I am understand what is needed

But _manual_ (through user orders) suppression it's not realistic.
And what an feature that will make the AI ​​automatically, all right. And this is in the future plans.

[Anon052]

I don't know what the problem is, isn't suprression fire there allready indirectly? Just use a squad to fire and another one to move. The support squad will supress the targeted unit I think. The target will have greater fire intensity which is a marker for supression i think.

[Schuck]

Hey guys,
You can already use spotters or commanders to fire on a specific area wether direct or indirect, using any of the weapons in your platoon/squad. MG's, mortars, Arty, infact pretty much anything.
I think the problem is wether your units can "see" the enemy units. Putting indirect supressive fire on an area that is not in your LOS would be pointless, and a waste of ammunition.
Plus, if you have option 5.01 disabled you will not be able to see any enemy units not in direct LOS, so what would you fire at?
But if you enable 5.01 you can see all enemy units, even those not in direct LOS. So you could put as much fire on them as you wanted, either to suppress or infact destroy. Unfortunately the AI units are unable to return the favour or return fire if you are not in thier direct LOS. Giving the player a rather big advantage. You could order an arty barrage, followed by a motar bombardment, followed by an air to ground attack, and if the enemy could not see you, they could not return a single shot!
Im not sure how you could solve this though.

[Limeni]

Hey guys,
You can already use spotters or commanders to fire on a specific area wether direct or indirect, using any of the weapons in your platoon/squad. MG's, mortars, Arty, infact pretty much anything.
I think the problem is wether your units can "see" the enemy units. Putting indirect supressive fire on an area that is not in your LOS would be pointless, and a waste of ammunition.
Plus, if you have option 5.01 disabled you will not be able to see any enemy units not in direct LOS, so what would you fire at?
But if you enable 5.01 you can see all enemy units, even those not in direct LOS. So you could put as much fire on them as you wanted, either to suppress or infact destroy. Unfortunately the AI units are unable to return the favour or return fire if you are not in thier direct LOS. Giving the player a rather big advantage. You could order an arty barrage, followed by a motar bombardment, followed by an air to ground attack, and if the enemy could not see you, they could not return a single shot!
Im not sure how you could solve this though.

You can use only arty weapons to do this, infantry wont obey the order.
Lack of suppression fire is really one of the most annoying things in this otherwise great game. Plesa fix that.  

[Redmarkus4]

I'm sorry Andrey, but here you are wrong and it is one of the things that hurts the game the most as a simulator.

Suppressing fire is one of the most fundamental parts of ground tactics, integral to manoeuvre -

We also used 'recon by fire' which involved firing at possible enemy positions in order to get a reaction such as screaming, shouting or return fire.  If you got such a reaction, you then plastered the location with everything you had, even though you still hadn't 'spotted' the enemy.

Most games make too much of 'spotting'.  The actual battlefield is much more chaotic in reality.

[andrey12345]

I'm sorry Andrey, but here you are wrong and it is one of the things that hurts the game the most as a simulator.

Suppressing fire is one of the most fundamental parts of ground tactics, integral to manoeuvre -


We also used 'recon by fire' which involved firing at possible enemy positions in order to get a reaction such as screaming, shouting or return fire.  If you got such a reaction, you then plastered the location with everything you had, even though you still hadn't 'spotted' the enemy.

Most games make too much of 'spotting'.  The actual battlefield is much more chaotic in reality.

Yes it's right. But if we're talking about realism this should be done automatically not through players orders.
This is a very complicated algorithm for AI. So far, only in the plans.

[Redmarkus4]

I understand 100%.  But we can dream of the future! 

[ham sandwich]

Yes, you absolutely fire at places that you don't necessarily see enemy targets in. That's the very definition of suppressive fire (vice direct/targeted fire). And suppressive fire + maneuvering = "Fire and Movement", the most fundamental principle of infantry tactics.

This is what happens:

In an engagement, an initial exchange happens until one side or the other achieves fire superiority over the other. That means the opposing side has been suppressed, neutralized or incapacitated.

Once that's been accomplished, and the enemy is no longer returning fire, you keep your fire up on that area in order to KEEP their heads down while your maneuver element makes its approach and carries out the assault. If you're doing it correctly, you'll never see an enemy pop up in that spot following the initial engagement, because half of your soldiers have been firing at their location (even though they no longer have direct line of sight). The next time direct contact (i.e. visual contact between an enemy soldier and a friendly soldier) occurs is when the assaulting element assaults the enemy location (i.e. storms the trench).

Here's a basic, abbreviated scenario:

-Friendly unit advancing across ground
-Effective fire received from (as yet unknown) enemy position
-Enemy position is located, friendly unit pours fire until return enemy fire ceases (which could take seconds, minutes hours or days depending on the scale of the scenario and the assets involved)
-Once enemy return fire ceases, half of the friendly unit maintains steady fire on the area where enemy was seen (even though the enemy is no longer showing himself - you're trying to keep it that way so he can't shoot back)
-Under the first half's cover fire, the second half of the friendly unit maneuvers into a position to assault the enemy location, and carries out the assault.
 (the only reason it's safe for the assaulting element to get up and maneuver is because the supporting element is keeping the enemy's head down with suppressive fire - persistently shooting at a piece of ground where they no longer see enemy [because said enemy is suppressed]).

The vast majority of rounds fired in any infantry direct engagement are suppressive in nature - that means only meant to keep the enemy's head down. That involves soldiers shooting at a place, rather than a seen target. This function not being present in the game greatly takes away from realism. Claims that having the ability to area fire at places you see no enemy would be "unrealistic" makes no sense, as the commander (in real life) has the ability to do just that - command his troops to shoot at places, and that's what he does. "Alpha team - suppressive fire on that trench" for example. When a commander issues an order to fire at a particular building, or bush, or trench, the recipient of that order not currently seeing a target there is of little consequence. The recipient will take his commander's word for it fire where he's told, because the recipient is a trained soldier and understands the purpose of suppressive fire.

They very much need to add this function into the game. In playing the demo, i tried to put in a platoon sized attack on a squad sized enemy position, but couldn't do it properly because i couldn't commit my supporting squad to just fire at the enemy location whether or not they currently "see" an enemy - enemy who are in the prone with grass and foliage around them. I could never fully suppress the enemy position which left my assaulting squads to advance unsupported, i.e. advancing against an enemy who was still sporadically shooting back at them where in reality, they wouldn't even try to advance before the enemy was fully suppressed, and not able to shoot at them.

A platoon should be more than enough combat power to carry out an attack on a squad where the enemy squad is completely suppressed for almost the whole duration, but the lack of an area/suppression fire function doesn't allow this to take place.

[ham sandwich]

Yes it's right. But if we're talking about realism this should be done automatically not through players orders.

Well here's where i might disagree. If you're issuing orders down to the level of the squad (i.e. commanding squads directly) for movement, then issuing a squad an order to fire suppressively is not any more or less realistic.