Steel Fury's Successor SP only or MP as well?

[frinik]

 HI Guys! I read a post on the Russian Avia forum dedicated to SF and a guy was (naively) asking whether Graviteam was considering making mutliplayer for SF . Of course Graviteam does not own the rights to SF and has new games and new games engines anyway.The question I am asking you , sicne people from Graviteam do read our forum, is would you like, want or make it a precondition of you purchasing Graviteam,s next WWII tank sim to have multiplayer included?

I personally wouldn,t because I understand the size of the xompany and thz amount of support required to maintain MP are daunting. I would however recommend to them that they include a viable, instant battle generator which could go a long way in sustaining interest in a future sim and making those who don't relish toying with the intricacies of a Mision Editor.

What do you think?

[whukid]

I agree. MP in my opinion is just too complex for a game with such a small player base. Quick missions, or an easy to access Mission Generator, would be nice. Something like IL-2 Sturmovik's Quick / Full mission builder. I'd also like a much more mod-friendly game. The learning curve for games such as Steel Armor and APOS is rather high, and I can only see it getting higher with the debut of a new engine.


Lastly,

MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO SHOOT DOWN THOSE FRIGGIN PLANES 

[frinik]

Whukid have you ever played Arma2? Comapred to it  SABoW is child's play believe me!!!!

BTW speaking of Arma2 they are releasing what looks like an awsome WWII Game using that game engine in May.It 's called Iron Front Liberation and there's a vid on the SIMHQ forum.The maps are gorgeous and they have lots of mid to late war German and Soviet armour, small arms, planes , artillery etc;The MP even features Conquest rounds loosely based on BF2/BF3 fps. Check it out!May be I can post the link to the vid.

[Estnische]

would you like, want or make it a precondition of you purchasing Graviteam,s next WWII tank sim to have multiplayer included?

Not at all.

I've never played MP on any of the sims I have. 

I'd place greater priority on a Quick Mission generator, or even better, some environments with structures, such as bunkers, stone bridges and two-storey houses.

[hemisent]

MP means nothing to me as I've never played it. I realize that it's very popular with some but I'd rather the effort went into a better ME or even a quick mission builder like others have.

[Panzerfaust]

Same here, MP isn't that overly important to me either. The biggest arguement MP fans seem to favor is that a human opponent is far and away vastly superior then any AI one, but really that just isn't totally true, if the AI is developed right there basically is no real difference. Why I believe most MP'ers believe this is because there really hasn't been a simulator released with a superior AI modeled into it for quite awhile. To be honest I cannot recall the last sim that was released with a very good/superior AI, but there are exceptions in the after release department.  A good case and point is BoB II WoV, the AI programmer who has been working on their AI updates over the years for this game has the AI so believable now it's easy to forget that WoV is a SP game and your fighting an AI pilot. Some of the pilots in WoV are meat on the table, others will give you a good run for your money and you have a 50/50 chance of being victorious and others will have you sweating bullets and realizing your not the great virtural combat pilot you thought you were, just like playing MP  . But even he has stated a good to superior AI takes time to develope and most game developers just don't have the option (especially if their game will have MP). So really I think the main appeal for MP'ers is the friendships/memories they develope with other MP players. Not saying thats a bad thing, I would love to have the chance someday to join you guys online for some tank on tank or some co-op action. But for myself if it came down to either having just MP or more SP game content with a superior AI I'll take the latter.
Cheers

[kapulA]

Sure MP would be cool, but it's not really that big of a point to me. A great thing to implement would be some kind of coop mode, so that each player controls their own tank in a single platoon, or that they each control their own platoon of tanks. That would be a pretty cool way to go through a campaign, I think. And, weren't tank platoons usually composed of 4 tanks, subdivided into 2 pairs? A small change to the platoon compositions to mirror that would also be pretty nice.

[norm]

Ja, I could live with out it, but I agree MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO SHOOT DOWN AIRCRAFT!

[Stig]

You guys are missing the point that the lack of multiplayer might be a limiting factor with the size of this sim's audience.

I can tell you unequivocally that the lack of MP is the ONE, SINGLE reason that has kept me from getting into this game. I've been lurking on this site for a few years now, and have come close to actually devoting time and effort to it, but it's the lack of looking forward to multiplayer that is the big impediment.

I have no desire to play scripted, set-piece scenarios. AI can never replicate human cunning, nor can it be freed from the other extreme, being overly skilled, or of using its omnipotence against the players. And I have no desire to "hide" behind my box and try to find the right combination of button presses to "win" a single-player scenario, take a screen shot or two and report on how well I did. I'd rather play with and against some other folks who were there and saw from their own vantage point what happened.

Those of you who have never matched wits with others online just do not know what you're missing. Good multiplayer, for example, is the reason why IL-2 Sturmovik has such a strong community. Even as the system progresses to the next generation of Cliffs of Dover, you can find HUNDREDS of IL-2 players, every single night, meeting to play in co-ops and in competition with each other, and in organized campaigns and wars, on HyperLobby (which is a server, matchmaking software that allows people to "find a game".

I still maintain that any game that wants to be taken seriously in this day and age just HAS TO have multiplayer.

[Kyth]

I've noticed that the multiplayer game community is a lot more vocal and supportive of modders.
That encourages more content to be put out there, and this draws in more players (both single and multiplayer). So there's a positive feedback loop.

Of course, as a precondition, that game has to be good, to begin with. 

[frinik]

Sitg I concur entirely with you!MP is definitely much more than interesting than any SP currently. I have played Red Orchestra, Battlefield 2 and BF3 MP and really there's no comparison with SP. But I understand that graviteam has budget and staff restrictions which impede them considering MP.Hopefully, if they can implement Co-op or a dynamic mission creator in any future that would address partly such cravings.

As well with computer software progress one can hope that the AI may even come close to human behaviour and become a clever opponent.I think IBM with their Deep Blue super pc that took on Chess Masters and won has proved that it's not impossible.

[Stig]

It's VERY HARD, but not impossible. The challenges with IL-2's AI were one of the things that eventually drew me away from the game. Having AI tailgunners nail you with the very first burst, while the plane is inverted and in a barrel roll... that sort of grates on a guy!  Also, knowing that the AI pilots could "see (and fire) through clouds" and didn't suffer the same blackout effects as players.... just got on my nerves!

But, admittedly, it is a HUGE challenge. Another project I was involved with had a system for robogunners that could produce GREAT results... but, it was hard to pin down what was working, what needed tuning, etc. On some planes, it was great! On others, they were either "dead-eye Dick" like with IL-2, or such bad shots they couldn't hit the SKY... neither of which was very satisfying. Finding that sweetspot was a huge challenge.

That's just ONE reason, though, why I prefer to limit the amount of AI I have to do combat with. And, having live human opponents is the best way to do it.

As for Graviteam and their budgetary concerns... well, I realize these are all pressing matters, but they don't have anything to do with me. I still say that if a production company is going to bring a game to market, MP needs to be a part of it, if it's going to be done right. I might even say that if there isn't money to put MP in place, maybe there's just not enough money to consider moving the product forward.

But, that's just MY opinion. And what do I know? Another really popular and very vibrant community, StrikeFighters, is still going strong, and that title's developer has always resisted putting proper MP in that game. Doesn't stop the players from creating a HUGE planeset of add-ons.

Another little point to bring up might be, if the game were designed from the bottom up for MP and for modding, maybe it'd be a little "tighter" under the hood... easier and more intuitive to create new vehicles, manipulate terrain, add objects, etc. You folks here have worked miracles with a system that seems to try to frustrate you at every turn. My hat's off to you for your perseverance!!!!

[whukid]

http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,13045.0.html <= IL-2 AI = fixed

I'm still on the fence about it. personally, I kind've enjoy our small community. In games with a larger player-base, there is rarely such interaction on a professional level for things like modding, such as in the Total War series website or even at IL-2 (the latter is all hearsay; I have yet to see the awful community reaction to some mods as the modders often complain)

[Panzerfaust]

Making the case for why SP games should have MP by including examples of numbers of players on game servers for games with MP and SP can be problematic, it can get even more skewed when comparing different game genres to one another. As far as we know there could be many times more playing game X in SP even if game X has MP, especially if game X has very good SP AI. To me that is kind of a the problem, far too easy tracking numbers of players in MP but no solid way to really track numbers of players in SP which can lead to some faulty conclusions. So when you see 4000 players online with a game does that automatically mean there's less playing in SP? Not trying to pick any fights here but as a long time flight simmer, Il-2 (1946) to me is a "meh" example in the old MP vs SP debate. It's SP AI was (and still is) very weak so MP is really the only way to go if you want a real challange from that game. Il-2 Cliffs of Dover has no SP AI to speak of (hopefully later   ) so here's my question, why did they even bother with SP in Il-2 CLoD? If UbiSoft's marketing research had seen everyone was playing Il-2 1946 in MP isn't it reasonable that they would have just pushed 1C to produce Il-2 CLoD as an MP only game? Why waste money and resources for a game mode that isn't a major factor in overall sales considering Il-2 is noted for having a very lackluster SP AI? But they didn't? Why not? Think they might know something we don't?
Another problem is using forums to gauge numbers of players of a game. Really anyone can just lurk on a forum to get the answers to problems they may have with a game, find out about mods etc and never post once or even bother to register. I know this is true because I do it myself with many of the non simulation games I also play. Another thing to observe is a visit to most sites will often show more "guest" online then actual registered users online. Even the file site I maintain for SFK42 mods show a crazy number of downloads yet I often wonder were are all these people playing SFK42 since I don't see anything approaching those numbers on the forums?

But if anyone has any doubt on how good AI can be developed for a sim (and your a flight simmer of course) get BoBII WoV , patch it up to 2.11 and play it. My first wow moment in BoB II WoV was when I finally got the six spot on a 109 I had been dogfighting hard for about 10 minutes in my trusty Spit. I peppered him up pretty good with my .303's. Streaming black smoke and white gycol mist I watched him enter a flat spin and fall earthward out of control from about 4000 feet (We started this dance at about 18000ft). I swept the sky quickly with the MkI eyeball and it was clear of enemy fighters so I watched his descent fully expecting to see the 109 become his funeral pyre in a few seconds. Low and behold if this AI pilot didn't get out of the spin at about 1000 ft and make a beeline straight for France on the deck leaving a long trail of smoke behind him. SOB I thought as I split-s'ed down to get back on his tail and put this sucker down for good. As I made up the distance I watched my airspeed so I wouldn't overshoot, slowly his 109 was filling my sight, he wasn't going to get away now...ready...squeeze the trig....BANG my Spit's hit hard! Tracers are flying past my cockpit! quick sideslip left, quick look around, cripes it's a 109 parked now on my six! (probably my "victims" wingman), wow who's the sucker now   Perfect bounce by the enemy 109 as he attacked me from a height advantage, probably using the sun to mask himself (probably why I didn't see him when I swept the sky a few minutes earlier),and waited to pull the bounce until I was fixated on another target and watched his airspeed so he didn't overshoot me. Cunning? Very much so and not just by one AI pilot but by two different AI pilots    After a few minutes of holing up my Spit the 109 split for France probably low on fuel, ammo or both. had to bail out of my Spit as the Merlin gave up the ghost a few miles from an airfeild. My virtural self didn't die that day, but it sure should have.
Cheers

[Donken]

I prefer the big moddability we have now more then MP. And its hard to make multiplayer a fair game with public/homemade mods. So i think for Graviteam, they can only choose one of them, Not both, we cant have the best of two worlds

Anyway, is there any simulator game out there that do have both? And by mods i mean full moddability, like adding new weapons and tanks and terrains etc, not only skins and different ui stuff! And how did they fix all problems with mods vs multiplay?