Modding the Gunsights--GO file extension

[Stig]

This smells like the problem is the level of component-level damage (or lack of same, perhaps). Perhaps the sight is tied to some larger object, like the entire gun, or the entire turret, and doesn't have its own small "hit box" somewhere in the turret itself.

Q: Does the object editor allow you to see the various components (like engine, turret, crew members, radios and gear, etc.) with their "hit boxes" displayed? And if so, are the various objects discernible from one other (e.g., a way to tell which colored box corresponds to which object)?

Hi Stig,

The object editor doesn't show the various 'hit boxes', but it does clue you in on their existence. They're the invisible fragments (chunks) labelled as "p_****".

For instance, the 'p_driver' fragment, signifies the tank driver's position. Any major damage caused there would likely incapacitate the virtual driver. Also, if you happen to be 'occupying' the driver's seat, it would mean game over...

I found (in another thread) evidence that the Object Editor DOES display bounding boxes/hit boxes.



Perhaps you should investigate which of these is the gunsight, and then look into resizing it, or up making it less susceptible to damage.

[Kyth]

Hi Stig,

Okay, I stand corrected! I got the "p_*****" fragments to show up on the selection list by pressing the 'show all' button (the yellow cube above).
By default, the "p_" fragments are not included in the 'select by name' listing! So, just press that button first! One of the quirks of the program, I suppose.

For anyone who wants to try, first load a .go file in the Object Editor.

1. Press 'Show All'

2. Go to the Selection Menu - Select by name. Select any/all of the "p_" fragments.

3. Invert selection

4. Press 'Hide Selection' (the transparent cube)

You should see a bunch of boxes representing the location of the gunner, loader, driver etc. formerly hidden within the turret and hull.

Though, I still can't find the box representing the sight. Just thinking out loud here - maybe that's the problem? No dedicated hitbox for the sight? Could anyone offer some advice?

[nodlew]

Thanks Boom,
I don't know why the link won't work for me. I have a satellite internet connection (Hughesnet--the company motto should be: We provide an expensive and terrible service for people who have no other option. For Customer Support call 1-800-Go **** Yourself. For best results, learn Hindu.) Sometimes that causes a problem for me due to the way the signal has to get routed back and forth through the Sat. Anyway, every time I click the first link, I get a Server not found error. Will download from Rapishare, thanks.

[boomshekah]

hehe np .
hmm, i think i still have my old "learning hindu in 2 days" tapes laying around here somwhere if you want them

[Stig]

Kyth wrote:

Though, I still can't find the box representing the sight. Just thinking out loud here - maybe that's the problem? No dedicated hitbox for the sight? Could anyone offer some advice?

Well, there HAS to be something, otherwise either the model or the game won't load... or the sight won't ever get damaged, because the files and references don't exist.

Unless... there's some routine that simply includes the sight, and is damaged along with the other (parent) object. As an example, if the sight is somehow considered a part of the turret, anytime the turret is "damaged" the sight is also "damaged". That might certainly explain how often the sight is cracked, as I'm sure a part of a vehicle as major as the entire turret assembly tends to take damage on any given combat mission.

[frinik]

Interesting stuff! That would also explain why the tank gun gets damaged along with the turret.BTW with the Panther I am starting to believe it has to do with the sloping of the armour in the game model which seems to deflect the shots on the gun just too often...

There was an interesting exchnage inthe Avia forum where one guy asked why is the coefficient of hits for the German tanks is understated at 0.1 versus 0.3 for the Sovs.The answer was that it was decided by the developers...Is it to balance the game?

Well another area to explore....

[Stig]

There is NO ACCEPTABLE REASON for "balancing" in the modeling of the units/weapons.

One can balance a *scenario* with force ratios, with tactical situation, or with victory conditions. You can make an unbalanced situation into a tense contest using these.

But, in terms of simulation, there is only right and there is wrong. You either are accurate or you're not. Now, there's a lot of grey area to discover in terms of how you get the numbers right... but it is completely disingenous to knowingly fudge known numbers.

I'm really glad we're discovering how to "get into" the files so we can check for accuracy (or bias) and can correct it.

[Kyth]

Interesting stuff! That would also explain why the tank gun gets damaged along with the turret.BTW with the Panther I am starting to believe it has to do with the sloping of the armour in the game model which seems to deflect the shots on the gun just too often...

Hi Frinik,

Which mission is giving the problems? I'm following up on a couple of possible solutions, but I have to establish a 'baseline' on probability of damage to gun and gunsight.

In Rends' Prokhorovka mission, even without modding the gun & sights, my little Panther platoon has a tendency to steam-roller the opposing force, without a scratch. 

[frinik]

  Hi Kyth I am playing nmy own user-made missions involving about 75 to 82 tanks/SPGs on the Soviet side againts about 30 on the German side and some At guns as well.Of coruse with such pitched battles I get a lot of hits and I noticed that those on the the front armour that don't penetrate and put an end to my mission seem to be deflected often on the gun.This I have noticed because of high number of missions played with gun damaged while the tank is still functional.

I do get broken sights but not as often and it's only during night missions thta they really hamper me and make the mission hard to play.

Thanks for your help!

[Kyth]

Wall-to-wall tanks!   

Where can I download and try out your missions? 

[frinik]

Th

Kyth, they re not missions in the real sense, no text, no mission successful trigeer( I don't beleive in that anyway).I just load maps [lace German tanks and artillery and then several group of Soviet tanks and then we fight it out!I add artillery barrages and flares when I make night missions. I seldom use infantry because they drive the fps down.My " battles" usually feature as player tank the Panther, ,the |Tiger I or II, the Panzer Iv F2, and sometimes the KV1 or T34/85, the Hetzer, STug III G/F or the Jagdpanther.

I can mail you some of my best ones if you PM me.

Cheers

[lockie]

1. Press 'Show All'

It's really a magic command!
I was shocked when I saw this pictures, but finally everth. were fixed. Thx for your investigation!

[Kyth]

 

What was fixed, Lockie?

The shocking thing about that Panther G is how poorly rendered it is 

 

[lockie]

What was fixed, Lockie?

Red parts, which were responsible for damage. You can see them at the picture. Now, they hidden inside the tank body! Yep, there're some issues vs panther G, but it's better than nothing, imho

[Mistwalker]

There was an interesting exchnage inthe Avia forum where one guy asked why is the coefficient of hits for the German tanks is understated at 0.1 versus 0.3 for the Sovs.

If I remember correctly, it has nothing to do with tanks. That was a discussion about shell fragility.

[lockie]

That was a discussion about shell fragility.

And? Du u really sure, that armor NO in any way affects the shell fragility?

[Mistwalker]

And? Du u really sure, that armor NO in any way affects the shell fragility?

Yes. It's all about numbers. 0.1 is the fragility for most of the german shells, and 0.3 for some of the russian shells.

[frinik]

Hem Mistwalker; unless I am abused tanks do use shells to fire at other tanks and infantry correct?

Anyway I wasn' t sure if they were talkign about the percentage of hits AI tanks achieve on other tanks but now thanks to you I know what they are referring to. And I still wonder why are German shells more fragile than Sov ones??? What happened to Made in Germany quality?

[Kyth]

Th

Kyth, they re not missions in the real sense, no text, no mission successful trigeer( I don't beleive in that anyway).I just load maps [lace German tanks and artillery and then several group of Soviet tanks and then we fight it out!I add artillery barrages and flares when I make night missions. I seldom use infantry because they drive the fps down.My " battles" usually feature as player tank the Panther, ,the |Tiger I or II, the Panzer Iv F2, and sometimes the KV1 or T34/85, the Hetzer, STug III G/F or the Jagdpanther.

I can mail you some of my best ones if you PM me.

Cheers

Hi Frinik,

Thanks again for your missions - you really should post them up somewhere for folks to try!
In a word, these missions are massive! 2 more words: Loud and chaotic! 

I'm only on your 2nd mission (Thunder) but I got blown away in the huge counterattack at the top of the hill! Great stuff!

And, something not so welcome, I got the dreaded "gun malfunction" also!

Have you considered adding in Victory conditions? This is to check out the stats at the end of a successful steam-roll. 

[frinik]

Hi Kyth! Happy you are enjoying them. I have 3 more I would like you to try...They are definitely on par with Fire and Fury.I played them yesterday and WOW I was blown away in every sense of the word!

Stay tuned.

Yes I have thought of that but I hate the artifical Missaion Successful or Failed stuff.At the end of my battles I simply end the mission and get the Mission Failed message so I can see the stats and check how the remaining players are doing...

Have fun and hang on for more!

Cheers