SABoW Update?

[Dane49]

No,the option to play either the same way the sims are set up now for the games SABOW/SF42 or an option to play in an APOS overall tactical commander mode.The option can be chosen from the options menu before choosing either a quick battle or campaign game.The only real difference being able to play with all the content provided by the 3 games as a whole.

I personally don't like being cooped up in a tank all game,but I would love the option of being able to command some of the tanks and weapons systems from the other 2 games on the APOS maps in a APOS manner.And I would think some of the SABOW/SF42 guys would like to be able to sim their Panther or Pz38 on the Taranovka or Rakitnoe maps and utilize some of the other features APOS offers that aren't available in those games.

[Flashburn]

Want to somewhat take back what I said about turning a tank sim into a tactical infantry FPS.  The sabow/apos game engine has 1 thing that no body else has right now.......... morphing land.  How many times have I read accounts of infantry types attempting to claw there way into the earth to get out of the way of flying metal death?  ALOT.  No other main stream game engine can do that right now.  This one can.  If such a thing where attempted I would say one.......forget playable tanks.  Apcs armored cars and such YES.  They directly support infantry.  Having them playable would add alot.  Tanks NO.  And heres why.  If you where to take sabow as it is right now and turned it into an fps infantry sim allot of the vegitation models would look weak.  They work fine if in a tank or over head as GOD.  But in them as infantry they would have issues.  SO this combined with the polygon land would require more detail in both which would mean a shorter view distance would need to be drawn.  Well tanks really need muliple kilometers of view distance to do right.  Infantry and armored cars/apc (era depending) do not.  Oh and much more detailed buildings..........

But digging in as infantry real time or ducking into a crater that just got made from arty...........hmmm that could be VARY nice indeed.  Of course you can do that now within APOS or even sabow if (well they often do it on there own) but hmmmm in the thick of it as an fps/3rd person infantry tactical game.  That could make big bucks in the west.  Just saying............

[johncage]

i don't think this engine is built for infantry, and even then, the infantry market is saturated. it would be a bad deal.

[Flashburn]

Hmmm yes FPS is full of stuff.  Tactical fps......next to zero.  Quite a number of kickerstarter projects are in production for that now.  Major game companys want to make COD BF clones.  YUCK@!  I mean now you even have cod zombie nazis?! WTF is that?  But this crap sells.  It sells ALOT. 

Sorry but you can not run carrying a zillion pounds of crap while having people trying to kill you and somehow shoot someone at 100 meters.  You never get to pick your weapon.  And wtf is a "class" in the military?   

But I degress. 

How bout this then.  After reading up whats being asked on sukhoi.ru.  BAse game.....something APOS like.  The tactic style game that is probably the best most developed thing gravi has right now.  Throw in buyable modules ala DCS/Eagle dynamics.  Could be a playable tank or more land scapes........my silly tactical infantry combat idea whatever?  NOT ANYWHERE AS easy as that.  But could work out.  Would not something like that rejoin all the community back together as well as getting new blood and paying the bills?

[Dane49]

i don't think this engine is built for infantry, and even then, the infantry market is saturated. it would be a bad deal.

I have to agree,the FPS infantry market is pretty well covered by a host of other games.

APOS does an OK job of simulating infantry combat at the squad and above tactical level,but if you were to zoom in on some of the personal duels the individual soldiers have with each other during close combat,it looks kind of ridiculous.

I think the infantry model would need a total overhaul before considering it for FPS and then you would be competing in a market with companies that have much more dollars, resources and experience in these games than Graviteam could muster.

[Flashburn]

Vary well could be right.  But the #1 fps of all time was started as 1 man show mod for Half life.  Talking about counter strike here.     A legit tactical fps does NOT have to go head to head with AAA crap.  97.35324532 of that player base would NOT want to play a legit tactical fps.  Such a thing would however go head to head with arma type players.  But an fps game that flops can still make more cash than a succesful tank sim or tactic game.

Oh and I am not saying counter strike is a legit tactical fps.........LOL No..............  Swat 3 and 4.  Ya maybe.  1st rainbow six ya.  Even the first ghost recon.....well also sort of.  Even the ACE mods for arma.....well sort of.  Actually hidden and dangerous 2 did a vary respectable job of it.  It was a balanced deal between game and sim but I quite enjoyed that one.

Also I am looking at this from a veterans point of view who has actually done some that crap.  The current FPS market is nothing like the real deal.  Hell......most of the time you don't even have legs.   

[Flashburn]

Also want to point out that if such a thing where done.......and yes it is possible.  Andrey said such a thing was ordered and got cancelled.  Probably due to alot of the reasons you guys have sighted.  But ARMA 3 is going all near future SCI FI.  Boy will people be disappointed that in 10 years time all that fancy sci gear is still ak's and m16's.     They sort of made a niche for other folks.......  but whatever, this is simply bla bla bla.  I am guessing it will get filled by others and or the arma mod community back dates the thing.  They should also have zombie space nazis too. 

[Dane49]

First person shooters never were really my cup of tea.They're OK to kill some quick time if you don't have an hour or more to spare.But,I personally prefer squad level and above combined arms tactical games.Like APOS .

Now a Multi-Player for APOS would appeal to me very much though.A human opponent would be a nice change from the all too often brain dead and semi predictable AI.

I would love to be able to duke it out with a human player in real time using the APOS engine for quick battles.Where each player in the beginning gets a certain amount of points to purchase their order of battle from a menu and are awarded extra points to purchase reinforcements during the course of the battle after capturing key terrain features on the 3x3 maps.

I'm aware that this is expensive to initiate and Graviteam doesn't feel that the profit from such a venture will cover the initial investment,and also that they don't think that their customer base as a whole would support such an idea.But,it is still an appealing idea to me,and I would jump at the chance to play it.

[Flashburn]

First person shooters never were really my cup of tea.They're OK to kill some quick time if you don't have an hour or more to spare.But,I personally prefer squad level and above combined arms tactical games.Like APOS .

Now a Multi-Player for APOS would appeal to me very much though.A human opponent would be a nice change from the all too often brain dead and semi predictable AI.

I would love to be able to duke it out with a human player in real time using the APOS engine for quick battles.Where each player in the beginning gets a certain amount of points to purchase their order of battle from a menu and are awarded extra points to purchase reinforcements during the course of the battle after capturing key terrain features on the 3x3 maps.

I'm aware that this is expensive to initiate and Graviteam doesn't feel that the profit from such a venture will cover the initial investment,and also that they don't think that their customer base as a whole would support such an idea.But,it is still an appealing idea to me,and I would jump at the chance to play it.

No Mp for APOS would be GREAT!  Ya I feel you on this.  Even just over a LAN. 

So long as a tank/plane/chopper/infantry/tactic type game remains true to reality.....well i like em all.  But has to have A BRAIN.  Thats the Number 1 for me.  I have a brain.....I WANT to use it.   

[whukid]

hmph. I get my ass handed too me by the AI in Steel Armor all the time.


EDIT:

Well, I take that back. Not ALL the time, but it's certainly a decent match in my opinion. Especially when fighting the little bastards with RPG's. I've decided that "scorched Earth" is the only real policy when it comes to fighting for the villages.

[Tanker]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

[Flashburn]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

ya i have.  It is odd.   

[Flashburn]

hmph. I get my ass handed too me by the AI in Steel Armor all the time.


EDIT:

Well, I take that back. Not ALL the time, but it's certainly a decent match in my opinion. Especially when fighting the little bastards with RPG's. I've decided that "scorched Earth" is the only real policy when it comes to fighting for the villages.

War CRIMES!  BABY!.  ya thats the conclusion I came to as well as there are no negative side effects.

[andrey12345]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

No. You not right.
But remember how the HE rounds works. If it dug into the ground, then impact force is mainly high-explosive wave (fragments get stuck in the ground), and the force of impact is reduced to the third power of the distance. It is very fast and kill radius is small.
Therefore, for the medium-caliber guns and shooting to ricochet or shrapnel preferred.

[Tanker]

hmph. I get my ass handed too me by the AI in Steel Armor all the time.


EDIT:

Well, I take that back. Not ALL the time, but it's certainly a decent match in my opinion. Especially when fighting the little bastards with RPG's. I've decided that "scorched Earth" is the only real policy when it comes to fighting for the villages.

War CRIMES!  BABY!.  ya thats the conclusion I came to as well as there are no negative side effects.

That's how those wars were fought.

[Tanker]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

No. You not right.
But remember how the HE rounds works. If it dug into the ground, then impact force is mainly high-explosive wave (fragments get stuck in the ground), and the force of impact is reduced to the third power of the distance. It is very fast and kill radius is small.
Therefore, for the medium-caliber guns and shooting to ricochet or shrapnel preferred.

Your point about a buried shell is valid and well taken Andrey.  But think of the trajectory of a tank cannon shell at 600 meters.  It is very, very flat.  It is not like a howitzer.  Of course, a lot depends on the surface quality of the earth.  If soft, the shell will bury, if hard, it will bounce.  I've shot HE very close to running infantry with no effect.  It does seem to be too ineffective. 

I will try the shrapnel shell that you refer to. 

[whukid]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

No. You not right.
But remember how the HE rounds works. If it dug into the ground, then impact force is mainly high-explosive wave (fragments get stuck in the ground), and the force of impact is reduced to the third power of the distance. It is very fast and kill radius is small.
Therefore, for the medium-caliber guns and shooting to ricochet or shrapnel preferred.

Your point about a buried shell is valid and well taken Andrey.  But think of the trajectory of a tank cannon shell at 600 meters.  It is very, very flat.  It is not like a howitzer.  Of course, a lot depends on the surface quality of the earth.  If soft, the shell will bury, if hard, it will bounce.  I've shot HE very close to running infantry with no effect.  It does seem to be too ineffective. 

I will try the shrapnel shell that you refer to. 

Have you tried bumping up the value of the HE shell? I can wipe out an entire trench-section with one shot from the M60, no extra mods or tinkering

[andrey12345]

Your point about a buried shell is valid and well taken Andrey.  But think of the trajectory of a tank cannon shell at 600 meters.  It is very, very flat.  It is not like a howitzer.  Of course, a lot depends on the surface quality of the earth.  If soft, the shell will bury, if hard, it will bounce. 

Yes, trajectory for shell fired from tank gun is flat. And you can never tell when the shell stops and how long it will fly after the point of first contact with the ground. In this case, which will guarantee the fragments is very difficult too. Better way is shot to tree over infantry. This technique was used by Russian tank crews in the Chechen war, for example.

I've shot HE very close to running infantry with no effect.  It does seem to be too ineffective. 

And how do you determine that it hit was close (within a guaranteed kill zone)?
From tank is very difficult to determine this fact, in my opinion.

[andrey12345]

I am check this moment. And results are great. 115 mm HE round against a standup infantry around 15 m lead to 9 from 10 hwounded or killed.
For lying soldiers naturally worse 3/4 from 10.

[Tanker]

Have you noticed that it seems that HE is not too effective against infantry in the open?  It seems that a direct hit is needed to kill or disable running infantry in the open. 

No. You not right.
But remember how the HE rounds works. If it dug into the ground, then impact force is mainly high-explosive wave (fragments get stuck in the ground), and the force of impact is reduced to the third power of the distance. It is very fast and kill radius is small.
Therefore, for the medium-caliber guns and shooting to ricochet or shrapnel preferred.

Your point about a buried shell is valid and well taken Andrey.  But think of the trajectory of a tank cannon shell at 600 meters.  It is very, very flat.  It is not like a howitzer.  Of course, a lot depends on the surface quality of the earth.  If soft, the shell will bury, if hard, it will bounce.  I've shot HE very close to running infantry with no effect.  It does seem to be too ineffective. 

I will try the shrapnel shell that you refer to. 

Have you tried bumping up the value of the HE shell? I can wipe out an entire trench-section with one shot from the M60, no extra mods or tinkering

I'm not sure how to do that.  Right now I can only kill one or two individuals in a trench with HE from 400-600 meters.