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Author Topic: My bewildered start  (Read 7872 times)
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WCG
Oberleutnant
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Posts: 23


« on: October 26, 2012, 02:14:19 AM »

OK, I finally got the game to work, after installing the patches, so I've been trying to play it. I'm still pretty bewildered, though, even after reading the documentation. And the tutorial, though it seems better than it was last January, when I first tried this, still leaves a lot to be desired (IMHO).

There really wasn't any indication of where I should start the game. I looked at the Quick Battles, but apparently I would have to choose all of the units on both sides and set them up (no way for just a quick introduction to the game, as far as I could tell). So I went into the Campaign section. Again, I wasn't sure where to start, but the top campaign (Operation Star, reasonably enough) was already open, and I figured I should probably go from the top down, right? So I started the Taranovka, February 16-17, 1943 scenario.

Now, the one thing I thought I'd figured out from the manual was that red was my side and blue was the enemy. But as far as I could tell from the description there, I was supposed to command the "320 Inf," who were shown in blue! The red guys were the "6 gds. Cav. Corps," my enemies. Now that was confusing. When I got into the next part of the game, the colors were reversed from this, but this backwards color scheme at the start was confusing.

Also, I was told that my guys were encircled, though they didn't look encircled. And I was also told that my mission was to break out of encirclement and advance to the east, to join division "SS LSAH." The problem with this was that I could see "SS LSAH" units on the map, and they were just a short distance to the southwest, not the east. So how could I meet up with them by going east through the solidly blue territory in that direction?

Oh, trust me, this was only the beginning of my confusion!   Smiley   In the south center of the map, I had a supply depot and three platoons, all of which said "encircled." Well, there were enemies to the north and east, but it looked clear to the south and west. As I say, they really didn't look encircled. And if my mission really was to meet up with "SS LSAH," I could see them just a short distance to the west. As it turned out, I could move my guys pretty much halfway there in my first move, so why wouldn't I? But is that what I was supposed to do?

There were two problems with that idea (in addition to the fact that this would have been moving them west instead of east). First, I couldn't move my supply depot guys. When I clicked on the three platoons, I could move them a surprisingly long way, if I wanted, but I had no such option for the supply depot. Well, it made sense that they couldn't carry crates of supplies on their backs, but if I was supposed to break out of that encirclement, I was going to have to leave the supply depot behind anyway, wasn't I? But I couldn't seem to give them those orders.

The other problem was that my platoons were very short of ammunition, while the supply depot apparently had ten crates of the stuff. At the very least, they'd fill up their pockets before they left, wouldn't they? But how was I suppose to order that? I still have absolutely no idea. Given all this, the lack of ammo, my inability to move the supply depot personnel, and my complete confusion about even which direction I was being ordered to go (neither Hitler nor Stalin being very forgiving of that kind of error, I suspect), I basically stayed put. And the enemy attacked me.

(Note that I also moved my guys at the north of the map. Since most of them were already as far east as they could go, I figured they were supposed to go west, despite what my mission objectives said. But no one attacked me in the north, near Taranovka, so I didn't get any further into that.)

OK, according to the arrow, my enemies were supposed to be attacking from the north. However, there was a solid mass of blue (the colors were correct in this part of the game) just to my east, as well. Shouldn't I expect that they might attack from that direction, too, even though there was no arrow (intelligence?) to that effect? I really had no idea, but I put one of my three platoons to defend a likely line of attack from that direction. (As it turned out, they had one enemy show up, I think, so it was mostly a waste, but not entirely. But I guess I do need to defend in other directions, too, then, right?)

My platoons were still desperately short of ammo, and I had no idea how to tell them to get any more. Is it suppose to happen automatically, if they're close enough to a supply depot? If so, how close is close enough? I still have no idea. (And I still think I should have run like hell to the west, and left the supply depot people to be captured, if they were too dumb to come with the rest of us. Of course, it probably wouldn't be much of a war game if I just ran away from battle all the time.)

Anyway, the enemy attacked from the north, with infantry and tanks. Nasty! I had a second platoon just a little out of position, expecting maybe a flank attack from the northwest, where there was cover, so the bulk of the attack hit one platoon. They were hit pretty hard, but they did OK until they all ran out of ammunition (they'd started with just 30% ammo, despite the supply depot being nearby). Then they panicked (reasonably enough) and ran to the south.

I tried to do a pincer attack using the two platoons that still had some ammunition, but then I got a notice in green that said "cease fire." Note that it didn't say I was being offered a cease fire, so I was a little confused by that, but I didn't think a cease fire could just happen, without my input, could it? There was an icon which said I could offer a cease fire by left-clicking it, and it was highlighted in red. (The manual seems to indicate that it should be highlighted in green if I can accept the enemy's offer of a cease fire, so I'm still not sure what was going on there.)

So again, as throughout this game so far, I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I really did want to accept a cease fire, if I was actually being offered one. After all, most of my guys were out of ammunition! So I tried clicking on that icon, to no apparent effect. Eventually, I suppose I must have done something wrong, because I got a battle resuming (I don't remember the exact wording) message. I tried clicking on that icon again - maybe I could offer a cease fire myself? - and eventually, I got that green message about a cease fire again.

Well, I was completely lost at that point, so I hit 'Esc' and went back to the operational phase of the game. If I play it again, I'll start all over. (How do I do that? Do I have to create a new player profile, or is there a way to start from scratch again?)

At this point, I'm not sure when I'll try this again. So far, the game has been more confusing and frustrating than fun. However, I'll probably feel more ambitious another day, if I can ever figure out (1) what I'm actually supposed to be doing, (2) how I can get more ammunition to my guys, when it's right next to them, and (3) how I can accept a cease fire (or otherwise end the battle) and what that's supposed to look like when it happens.
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Capt Sam
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Posts: 99


« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 09:51:07 AM »

Oh man, how lucky you are to be seriously playing for the first time in awhile.  I would love to be you and starting all over.  I think I know that exact campaign you are starting.  That first battle where the recon is surrounded is basically a battle I play where I hide my recon units (and hold fire) and call in artillery on the enemy.  You know, they just do recon and are often over-run if they fight.  I hit the enemy as hard as possible with indirect fire and then "tag" a few flags before the game ends.

What is great is that there are so many ways to play the game:  I've tried pausing for every event, auto-pausing ever minute and reviewing messages(with an external program), or full-on real-time with no pausing.  Three different games, basically.  Other ways would be to never move the camera far from the commanders, requiring me to move them around realistically to see the game.  Also, playing often from the map view helps.

If you can figure out the quick-battles, I like playing a small (less than three platoons each of combined arms) quick battles.  If I win, I move the battle destination either East or West after the game and start over.  I either get pushed off the map or the enemy does.  This is really fun in real-time without pausing since I have only a few units.  It becomes a slow movement to contact, and the immersion is without equal.

I have come to actually like the UI, but it seemed like a complete mess.  I totally understand why someone would feel overwhelmed at first.  In fact the UI can be quite cumbersome, and I often find myself just giving certain movement orders and trusting the AI.
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Capt Sam
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Posts: 99


« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 12:35:14 PM »

Actually, one of the best guides for quick battles was made by Redmarkus.  Around page 2 we get an awesome step-by-step battle and the decision process that the player made.  It is awesome, but I'd read it first before trying it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3116240

You probably will want to do a lot of pausing to play like that, but the real-time

Also, I was extremely entertained by Jeff Major's AAR on youtube that you spoke earlier about--it is my favorite video AAR.  Not much pausing, very confusing, and very funny.
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WCG
Oberleutnant
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Posts: 23


« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 05:19:35 PM »

Actually, one of the best guides for quick battles was made by Redmarkus.  Around page 2 we get an awesome step-by-step battle and the decision process that the player made.  It is awesome, but I'd read it first before trying it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3116240

Thanks for the link. That's really good, and I might try a quick battle sometime.

But I'm not actually as interested in the quick battles. I prefer the narrative structure of a campaign. (I'm not actually a wargamer - I have no interest in the details of equipment and the like, although I enjoyed some of the Combat Mission games - and even in strategy games, I like a narrative. I guess I tend to prefer RPGs, and strategy games with some RPG elements.)

I knew there were a lot of details in this game which I'd probably ignore - like whether to march in one column or two - and a lot of commands I'd have to learn. But the details haven't been that bad, since there are tool-tips everywhere. It's just the basics of the game I'm having trouble with: what I'm actually supposed to be doing, how my troops can get ammunition when they're right beside a supply dump, whether I'm supposed to be defending that supply dump or running like hell (and in which direction!), etc.

I'll definitely need to read through the manuals again before I give this another try. I'm still confused about that cease fire thing, too.


I think I know that exact campaign you are starting.  That first battle where the recon is surrounded is basically a battle I play where I hide my recon units (and hold fire) and call in artillery on the enemy.  You know, they just do recon and are often over-run if they fight.

You know, I don't think that's the same one. (This one isn't even the same one as the first time I tried this game, back in January.) These aren't recon units, I don't think. And I couldn't actually find anyone who could call in artillery. Actually, I was just wanting to put some flares over the enemy, but I couldn't find anyone to do that. Admittedly, I didn't check all of my command units, just some of them. And maybe I just couldn't figure it out.


Also, I was extremely entertained by Jeff Major's AAR on youtube that you spoke earlier about--it is my favorite video AAR.  Not much pausing, very confusing, and very funny.

Yeah, he's one of my favorites. And I love humor in those video play-throughs!

Unfortunately, I watch too much of that stuff, so I keep buying games that I probably wouldn't even notice, otherwise. That's not all bad, of course, but I've got too many games to play already. And I'm retired! Yet there's still not enough time in a day!
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Lemonade
Oberstleutnant
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Posts: 191


« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 08:52:54 PM »

Quote
But I'm not actually as interested in the quick battles. I prefer the narrative structure of a campaign.
Just like me. Historically accurate battles is what I'm after and quick battles don't guarantee it unless you have access to some good sources about a particular clash. And sources with accurate OOB on tactical level as well as units state (supply, manpower) are pretty hard to come by.

Quote
I knew there were a lot of details in this game which I'd probably ignore - like whether to march in one column or two - and a lot of commands I'd have to learn. But the details haven't been that bad, since there are tool-tips everywhere. It's just the basics of the game I'm having trouble with: what I'm actually supposed to be doing, how my troops can get ammunition when they're right beside a supply dump, whether I'm supposed to be defending that supply dump or running like hell (and in which direction!), etc.
I've never found the column modifier useful. I always set it to single row or column and that's it.
About supply depots. From what I know, they provide supplies after each turn on operational level. And about that particular supply dump... I'll come back to it in just a second.
Quote
You know, I don't think that's the same one.
I believe Capt. Sam thought you're playing the Taranovka campaign as Russians (2nd Taranovka operation on the list). In this Operation you indeed have a reconnaissance platoon surrounded by German troops.
In the first Taranovka operation, you have elements (5th coy) of German 320 Infantry Division and a supply dump in Kolkhoz Borki (or sovfarm. Borki). I found the word "birds" in parenthesis after the name of the settlement Borki to be a joke referring to their actual tactical position. They are indeed like sitting ducks for the incoming tank platoons.
In my play, during the tactical phase, I've decided to simply pull out the whole 5th coy along with the supply dump, which I lost forever with only its crew remaining who rallied several turns after the enemy has taken Borki over. But you don't really need that supply dump. The LSSAH Division units to the west of this place are loaded up high with ammunition and fuel (be sure to turn on the 4.13-Player controls allied troops option, because the operational-level allied AI is clueless). Despite the loss of this supply dump, I've managed to keep the 5th coy in full strenght and moved it to defend the Razdolnoe village to the SSE. It's a perfect place for unentrenched infantry to defend because it has a lot of buildings and several patches of forests. And if they entrench after several turns, you can be pretty sure they stop the enemy advance or at least delay it until some of the LSSAH units arrive.

Now, I think there are two to three Lend-Lease tank platoons participating in the initial attack on the 320/5. They are mixed platoons of Matildas II and Valentine, so I'd only engage them either in urban environment (like Razdolnoe) or, if you're already entrenched - on the outskirts of forests and rough terrain. You'll get an opportunity to lay your hands of a mechanized LSSAH recon platoon pretty early in the operation, but I'd avoid any direct contact with the tanks. I'd rather outmanoeuvre them (they're slow like hell) in an attempt to gain some ground.

Don't forget to reinforce your LSSAH panzer platoons with tanks (one additional tank from reserves per platoon) before they are released!
I think two Tiger tanks per platoon are enough. I didn't try three as they may eat too much fuel and ammunition on their way and it might bring you to a halt just before you reach outskirts of Taranovka. But again, as I said, I didn't try more than two Tigers per platoon, so you never know.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 12:15:47 AM by Lemonade » Logged
Redmarkus4
Oberstleutnant
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Posts: 157


« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 02:59:20 PM »

The only reason I suggested starting with the QBs in my thread was for training purposes.  If you start a campaign as a noob, not knowing how the controls work, you can be 100% sure that you'll need to start it over.  And that takes away the suspense of not knowing what's coming next.

I use QBs to learn and to test new techniques (like splitting infantry from their APCs) and the campaign for the fun side of things.
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WCG
Oberleutnant
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Posts: 23


« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 07:16:13 PM »

Thanks! I still plan to give it a try again, once I work up the ambition. Unfortunately, I'm playing a half-dozen different games already, with still more games I've bought just waiting on the sidelines, and it's just hard to find the time for all of them.

Still, it's a great problem to have, isn't it?  Smiley
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Capt Sam
Major
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Posts: 99


« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2012, 01:39:31 AM »

Yes that is a very good problem to have!  I play all kinds of games and AP is one of the best!  I also love science fiction games and I think that the original Supreme Commander is one of the best real-time games ever!--played at a very slow -10 speed, of course.

If you are willing to spend the time to learn it, AP is a great game.  Trust me please, I won't play a game unless it is good, whether it is a wargame or not.  APOS is in the same league as Steel Panthers, Close Combat, and Combat Mission.  In many ways, it is better than all of those.

Do you have the original Achtung Panzer game?  In that game the operational maps are essentially a chess-board style with only one platoon per grid square.  It is actually easier to get the concept of territory in the campaigns for APOS at that level of one platoon per grid square.  In reality, you can put much more than a platoon inside one square km, but have you noticed that most campaigns in APOS are about trapping units and hunting them down, instead of massive offensive operations?  At that level, going out hunting for the enemy is very appropriate.
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Redmarkus4
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Posts: 157


« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 06:04:13 PM »

I also own way too many games.  I could probably buy a monster new gaming machine with all the titles I no longer play or never really got into playing.

Yet AP is one of a few games that I keep coming back to.  The realism, atmosphere (use the camera to follow a unit through the woods at dusk as they search for the enemy to see what I mean) are just so immersive that I can't stay away from it too long.

Other games that gripped me this way include B17, IL2, CMx1, Close Combat when it came out, Steel Panthers, Battle Academy, Silent Hunter III, and Decisive Campaigns. The number that didn't can be counted in the hundreds.
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Dane49
Generalfeldmarschall
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Posts: 1479


« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 10:13:41 PM »

Quote
The realism, atmosphere (use the camera to follow a unit through the woods at dusk as they search for the enemy to see what I mean) are just so immersive that I can't stay away from it too long.

I also use the camera at ground level to accompany my patrols on their morning missions.
By far my favorite part of the game,feels like I'm there with them.
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Redmarkus4
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 05:44:24 PM »

There with them, but still somehow holding a hot mug of coffee while they freeze their butts off. LOL
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