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Author Topic: Pathfinding- Still needs help  (Read 2553 times)
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benpark
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« on: January 03, 2013, 01:01:25 AM »

The move toward less micromanagement with the new test update is interesting- but I can't see limiting any movement orders yet due to the problematic pathfinding (particularly by halftracks). I started looking at the latest update with the spirit of "less is more" with the amount of orders I was giving, but this didn't last long, as my single "move" order came to naught due to 4 halftracks miring in a river at a ford. This happens regularly (still).

This is the biggest outstanding issue of the game for me. I enjoy it greatly, but am constantly frustrated by the inability of the friendly AI to avoid driving up the side of a building or take a left to avoid driving the other half of the bridge or ford to see what kind of fish live at the bottom of the river. It's not the orders I'm giving- they are simple- go to one point, nothing complex at all.

I can't see having players give LESS orders when this is such a big problem still.

Please give the pathfinding another look.
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wodin
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 02:30:16 AM »

+1000..it's a major issue esp with the goal of less micromanagement. This is the sort of thing I worry about, how are we going to have a super TACAI when it has such obvious difficulty traversing terrain.
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lavish
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 09:23:20 AM »

Use by road or vehicles on road together with column formation or no formation to go through fords or villages if possible. However, I also agree that pathfinding has sometimes issues and may lead to unnecessary losses. Luckily enough, the problems only arises at certain situations and the risk can be reduced by using the movement orders I mentioned (you can't drive through a village or ford in a line formation!) or not going through dangerous areas in the first place (sometimes this is "realistic", sometimes not). Otherwise I think the pathfinding works well considering how big the maps are. At least we don't have to worry about vehicles immobilizing in the mud etc...  Grin I hope that "bogging" of vehicles (but not purely random) would be included in the game so there would be real reasons to use roads as it should be. That would almost be masochistic.  Cheesy
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andrey12345
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 09:40:52 AM »

The move toward less micromanagement with the new test update is interesting- but I can't see limiting any movement orders yet due to the problematic pathfinding (particularly by halftracks). I started looking at the latest update with the spirit of "less is more" with the amount of orders I was giving, but this didn't last long, as my single "move" order came to naught due to 4 halftracks miring in a river at a ford. This happens regularly (still).

This is the biggest outstanding issue of the game for me. I enjoy it greatly, but am constantly frustrated by the inability of the friendly AI to avoid driving up the side of a building or take a left to avoid driving the other half of the bridge or ford to see what kind of fish live at the bottom of the river. It's not the orders I'm giving- they are simple- go to one point, nothing complex at all.

I can't see having players give LESS orders when this is such a big problem still.

Please give the pathfinding another look.

Use the proper modifiers. If you send tight formation with vehicles in the woods or through the village, the AI ​​will have to somehow do this wrong order.

There is no point problems with orders to blamed on the pathfinding or AI steps  Tongue.
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xandu
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 11:13:16 AM »

Someone could do a manual detailing how these modifiers act. Another way to help would be a tutorial explaining how each order is interpreted according to the terrain and situation.
Much of beginners, like me, would be grateful and would have a less frustrating experience when playing this great game.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 11:27:35 AM »

Someone could do a manual detailing how these modifiers act. Another way to help would be a tutorial explaining how each order is interpreted according to the terrain and situation.
Much of beginners, like me, would be grateful and would have a less frustrating experience when playing this great game.
In a tactical manual described various options (from page 35) with schemes (from page 46). But there's nothing complicated, they are logically reflect real life.

Use simple rules:
1) Tight formation through the villages and forests do not have to go.
2) If you need to get somewhere far away, it is better to do it by the road in a column (select "by road" modifier).
3) If you want attack to the enemies - select attack order, clear place and line formation.
4) If you want to hold defence - select defence order (not movement) and drag face direction that you need.
5) Hold Shift and make a detail plan (waypoints) if you want more control.

Simple set appropriate modifiers and order.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 11:34:46 AM by andrey12345 » Logged
wodin
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 02:38:20 PM »

That doesn't explain AFV's falling into trenches\holes or Halftracks not searching for crossing points over rivers..sorry but I don't think it is the players fault here using the wrong tactics..I use the right tactics for the right situation..but the pathing and tac ai with this regards needs working on. To say it's the players playing it wrong means it will never be looked at even though it's obvious it needs looking at. You want less micromanagement yet we have to micromanage movement and even then your tanks will fall into holes etc.
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benpark
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 02:56:17 PM »

Understood. I have been doing all of the suggestions above with regularity since the first game (where pathfinding was more of a problem). As I mentioned, this happened in a ford crossing one of the rivers. This was in "line" and "road column" orders. There's still some need for an improved "impassable" avoidance routine by the vehicle AI. A test of sending vehicles over fords (and through any dense terrain) will surely show this issue to still result in an undue loss of vehicles. I am all for a certain degree of "bogging", but loss due to vehicles taking a left in the middle of a ford (3 of them!) is something else.

As I said, I like the game very much. Just making a helpful observation on something that I find to something that could stand some more tweaking if we are going further away from player control.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2013, 03:03:47 PM »

That doesn't explain AFV's falling into trenches\holes or Halftracks not searching for crossing points over rivers..sorry but I don't think it is the players fault here using the wrong tactics..I use the right tactics for the right situation..but the pathing and tac ai with this regards needs working on. To say it's the players playing it wrong means it will never be looked at even though it's obvious it needs looking at. You want less micromanagement yet we have to micromanage movement and even then your tanks will fall into holes etc.

Developers are also playing their game, and APC will not fall into holes and are looking for the point of intersection of rivers, etc.
Therefore it is better to put screenshots such notes (with max tacinfo), or I not believe to you Smiley

APC can not timely respond to the obstacle like a river in only one case - a dense formation in the line that crosses the river. This is what I was saying upper. Sorry but this is clearly slipped from the player not AI.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2013, 03:05:58 PM »

Understood. I have been doing all of the suggestions above with regularity since the first game (where pathfinding was more of a problem). As I mentioned, this happened in a ford crossing one of the rivers. This was in "line" and "road column" orders. There's still some need for an improved "impassable" avoidance routine by the vehicle AI. A test of sending vehicles over fords (and through any dense terrain) will surely show this issue to still result in an undue loss of vehicles. I am all for a certain degree of "bogging", but loss due to vehicles taking a left in the middle of a ford (3 of them!) is something else.

As I said, I like the game very much. Just making a helpful observation on something that I find to something that could stand some more tweaking if we are going further away from player control.
Please put screenshots (with tacinfo) and description what you do. And that so hard to understand what happened and to adequately correct or point out the error.
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benpark
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »

Will do, thanks.
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wodin
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 04:29:10 PM »

There is a screenshot on this forum which shows three tanks all in holes..it happens.

I really do think pathfinding and close anti tank weapons for Inf needs working on to give the Inf abit of bite against Tanks.

However we have to agree to disagree;) Shame as others notice these things aswell.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 04:39:41 PM »

There is a screenshot on this forum which shows three tanks all in holes..it happens.
One screenshot one incident from two years? Its not a problem at all  Grin.
And yes send right orders with right modifiers... You control your forces not an AI.

I really do think pathfinding and close anti tank weapons for Inf needs working on to give the Inf abit of bite against Tanks.
I think that path finding is more than adequate and effectivness of anti-tank weapons is too high. The first will not touch, and the second will decrease in the near future  Grin.

However we have to agree to disagree;) Shame as others notice these things aswell.

Not only that, I can document their words into practice, showing what's what. And you?  Grin
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andrey12345
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 07:02:52 PM »

For you guys, look carefully  Grin
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lavish
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 09:29:44 PM »

***Feel the power of the AI***
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wodin
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 10:31:26 PM »

Looks great, but really if you going for less micromanagement shouldn't the tacai automatically choose the best route over the river then drop back into the attack\move formation you gave it once across? Without having to give an order by road\column across the river then redo the move order once across to drop back into line formation.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 10:07:06 AM »

Looks great, but really if you going for less micromanagement shouldn't the tacai automatically choose the best route over the river then drop back into the attack\move formation you gave it once across? Without having to give an order by road\column across the river then redo the move order once across to drop back into line formation.

So I did not choose, I gave exactly one order by one click in each experiment, the AI ​​went back to the desired formation - see last experiment.
And AI should nothing to anybody Grin, it does something that it will ordered by player. If ordered nonsense, it will try to do the nonsense.

So I was always a fun from reference to the fact that the AI ​​there stupid or something like that   Cheesy.
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benpark
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 09:04:55 PM »



Okay, what did I do wrong here?

Orders were Attack/Column from one side of the river to the other (enemy is obviosly present, so "move" seems not the right order). I would prefer to give an order where the attacking forces move to the ford in column, cross at the ford, then spread out, but stringing orders together doesn't seem to work for me.

The halftracks going over the ford drove right up to the river, with one spinning it's wheels and getting mired (Holt). Meanwhile, the infantry (seperating from their transport) decide they don't want to use the ford, and are headed waaaay to the left to cross somewhere else. They are highlighted in the blue boxes in the screenshot. Mu orders are also displayed.

Any ideas on how to get across this impossible river?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:06:38 PM by benpark » Logged
wodin
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 09:26:08 PM »

did you do attack\column\road?

Still think the tacai should cross a river and avoid holes in the ground without having to give specific orders for it to do it properly. Why can't you give your attack order and when it gets to a river automatically change around so it can cross properly and then drop back into attack formation? Surely that will be a case of a clever AI...showing how it will adjust your order to complete it's objective in a realistic way..rather than needing spot on orders for it not to act stupid. Your asking more form the AI that currently can only do the right thing if given the exact order. Why can't it use abit of "intelligence". i.e it's given an attack order across a river, it gets to the river and uses the best possible route across then when across goes back into attack formation set by the player. That way you'll be really showing off a damn fine AI that will think for itself abit esp facing obvious obstacles.

Andrey the AI is very good at the moment and I do love the game but no AI is perfect we still  have a very long way to go for that so maybe one day this sort of thing will happen in GT..the AI or tacai will think for itself at times and act in a realistic way when facing obstacles like a river. Thatw ay you'll be getting towards your goal of less micromanagement.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 09:44:08 AM »

Please see my video

And enable tacinfo due to make screenshot.
I am not a psychic man and not seen the hidden things  Grin

Now the comments in general:
1) What do you do with the APCs in this area?
2) What do you expect to move around impassable terrain? A miracle? it will not  Grin
3) The game have a very lenient rules for terrain passableness / obstruction. In reality, you would be there all the APCs stay stuck.
4) Briefings clearly written as did German commanders in reality (as it is strange but they were moving along the road only) , it is in my view useful information. I understand that the players at times smarter than the real commanders  Cheesy, but still a better ride on the road as well as in reality.

Tracked vehicles has limited mobility. There is no need to check it from time to time, choose the square with roads and use modifier move by road.
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