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Author Topic: What about updating the "Manual"?  (Read 13428 times)
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Txema
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 12:12:04 AM »


Well, who in their right mind would read the manual in 100 pages ?


I think that in general the player that wants to play a WWII tactical simulator as historically accurate as posible (probably your average customer) wants also to read a good manual that explains properly the game mechanics, the design compromises made in the game and their motivations, how to play the game as intended by the designers... And also some tutorials designed to teach the player quickly how to start playing and how to conduct simple battles taking successfull tactical decisions.

I also think that this kind of player likes to read books on WWII history, and in general on military history, and is willing to invest time to understand better your excellent game, so all the effort that you invest on improving the manual will be very wellcome by the average player of your game.

I think that currently their very good manual is a very important advantage of your competitor Combat Mission games. In my opinion, if you want to increase your number of customers, it is very important to have a good manual for your game. In my opinion it would be better to delay some new features in the game if necessary, but you have to make sure that Graviteam Tactics is released with a very good game manual.

You spend a lot of time and effort to make your WWII tactical sim as historically accurate as possible. And that is very important for my enjoyment of the game. Please keep at it !!! But in my opinion it is also very important to document those things in a good manual to let the player see the historical accuracy and depth of your game. Otherwise a lot of those details and features are not noticed by a lot of players !! Implementing a lot of those details and not documenting them in a good manual can be the real waste of resources !!

BTW, I do read your manuals, all of the pages, and they are very important for my enjoyment of your games.  Smiley

Txema

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andrey12345
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 07:44:47 AM »

Sorry but I think we are living in a different worlds Wink Which developer don't make manuals?
I'm talking about AAA games developers, or just A class on different platforms.
Take a recent examples - Angry Birds, WoT, Dishonored, Black Ops 2, Walking Dead, XCom, etc

Somewhere we must read the manual (and it does have more than 10 pages) to start the game?

I'm not talking about FIFA or something like this.
But why? This is a good example of a successful game that is popular from year to year.

As I remember Combat Mission has manual(not only that from a begone age but also modern Combat Mission), Silent Hunter, War In the East, War in the Pacific,  Airborne Assault(now command ops) Hearts of Iron, Total War and many, many more.
What about some of the games on your list, I'm not sure. But except for TW series (But TW has a small manual on 35 pages that shows that in general it is not needed.), other games I would not call it successful or well-known, although the games are good.
Thus we see a simple trend that popular and famous games manage in whole without a big manuals. Sorry but its a real world Smiley
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Tanker
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM »

Are you seriously comparing your games to WOT, XCOM, Angry Birds and Walking Dead?  APOS and the tank simulations are worlds apart in detail and complexity from those games, and your games appeal to a more niche audience.

Surely you are aware of Command Ops, The Operational Art of War (TOAW), and Combat Mission I and II?  I think they are the most comparable to your present games.  They all have complete manuals.  They would have been much less of a rewarding experience without them.  It would be impossible to gather all the details of those games without a manual.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 07:55:04 PM »

Are you seriously comparing your games to WOT, XCOM, Angry Birds and Walking Dead?
Sure. This is a successful games, it is with them I compare at games _in general_. Which makes sense to compare with outsiders?

  APOS and the tank simulations are worlds apart in detail and complexity from those games, and your games appeal to a more niche audience.
Yes, but that should not mean the same crooked interface and difficulties with the game without reading the manual. I understand that usually means, but in general should not be - it is also the games too Smiley
As a counterexample, give the game Close Combat series. This is not less complicated game with a nontrivial game mechanics, but somehow do without large manuals. I would venture to suggest that  largely because of thoughtful interface.

Surely you are aware of Command Ops, The Operational Art of War (TOAW), and Combat Mission I and II?  I think they are the most comparable to your present games. 
We can see now bad time for wargames, what's the point in comparison to the games that led to this? Obviously in this games are not chosen the most successful solutions in terms of games. There is no sense to copy them, especially since there are a number more successful examples.

They all have complete manuals. 
...and have a very confusing and complex interfaces, without manual can not tell. But again, we can go the other way, for example to make a more intuitive interface, etc  Wink. And we see in practice that the games have gone this way have a wider audience.

They would have been much less of a rewarding experience without them.  It would be impossible to gather all the details of those games without a manual.
On your turns that aircraft pilots and operators of military vehicles must read books instead of using interactive training complexes, or what?  Cheesy
This is contrary to the world around us, reading one of the most primitive way to learn something.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:57:45 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Beelzeboss
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2013, 08:27:53 PM »

Quote
Sure. This is a successful games, it is with them I compare at games _in general_. Which makes sense to compare with outsiders?

Achtung Panzer is an "outsider" game, you should accept this fact ;P  AP is more similar to games like CM, Command Ops or TOAW then games you mention so comparison is good. And you will not make this title mainstream by resigning the manual. Maybe APOS's interface is not so complicated and game is more automated but even in best tutorials or tooltips you cant give players same amount of information like manual can do. I think you are making big mistake

Quote
On your turns that aircraft pilots and operators of military vehicles must read books instead of using interactive training complexes, or what?
From what I know pilots do read a lot before they will be allowed to fly
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 08:48:55 PM by Beelzeboss » Logged
andrey12345
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2013, 08:50:33 PM »

Achtung Panzer is an "outsider" game, you should accept this fact ;P
Yes of course. Auidince for all wargames is very small. This means that there are some problems.


AP is more similar to games like CM, Command Ops or TOAW then games you mention so comparison is good.
If we will compared by gameplay features - yes. But for graphics/manual and all misc things the same like any other game.


And you will not make this title mainstream by resigning the manual.
This is about half a year as an accomplished fact, and we had no any impact for sales of the game. Not better not worse.
I do not quite understand why so six months later it was manifested in an attempt to convince us that it is bad  Grin

Maybe APOS's interface is not so complicated and game is more automated but

Here it is necessary to stop. As I wrote the developer chooses how to spend the resources (which frankly - a little), do you really think that the strange complex interface + non-automated gameplay but with manual is better than the normal interface, automation, but without the manual?  Huh?

From what I know pilots do read a lot before they will be allowed to fly
Key word "before", they did not do it together, it do before. And they do not read books about training complexes(in our case about game), but about the aircrafts and vehicles (in our case about the war.)
I do not see any reason why a player _before_ the game could not read military literature. Lack of manual does not interfere in any way  Grin
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:13:48 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Beelzeboss
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2013, 09:03:05 PM »

I think it's always better to have manual Smiley And I would like to read manual for APOS there are many things that i would like to know and there will be probably more of them and i don't like to search for answers on forums or asking for every problem i have found. If I have problem with understanding something i like to look at manual and find it by my own. Tooltips are good things but it's not enough. And from what I see I'm not the only one who likes to have manuals so not all people have forgotten how to read and are afraid of 100 pages books Smiley If you don't have time or resources for this, ok but don't say that you will not make manual because it's useless.
Maybe we should do/make(i don't which one is correct ;P) a survey and check how many players want a manual Smiley

Quote
Key word "before", they did not do it together, it do before. And they do not read books about training complexes(in our case about game), but about the aircrafts and vehicles (in our case about the war.)
Yes, and they read about avionics and onboard systems of their plane(it's interface Smiley ) so it's something like our manual Smiley
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:10:15 PM by Beelzeboss » Logged
andrey12345
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2013, 09:17:42 PM »

I think it's always better to have manual Smiley

As say - it is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick. Argue with that obviously no one will.
But is usually obtained the poor and the sick, and as you know, not because people do not understand this simple truth.
Always have to choose what to do what not.

And I would like to read manual for APOS there are many things that i would like to know and there will be probably more of them and i don't like to search for answers on forums or asking for every problem i have found. If I have problem with understanding something i like to look at manual and find it by my own.

Oh well, we can not just deny of their players pleasure to communicate over the internet. Now you know a trend to socialize in games  Grin.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:20:51 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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Tanker
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2013, 03:54:41 AM »

Andrey wrote:This is about half a year as an accomplished fact, and we had no any impact for sales of the game. Not better not worse.
I do not quite understand why so six months later it was manifested in an attempt to convince us that it is bad 

Because we kept hoping an improvement of the inadequate manual was on your to do list?  You never confirmed that you would eliminate the manual 6 months ago.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2013, 05:51:22 AM »

Because we kept hoping an improvement of the inadequate manual was on your to do list? 
Six months ago manual was discarded, its all plans in to do list.

You never confirmed that you would eliminate the manual 6 months ago.
I wrote about the fact that it will be replaced by the ingame helper in spring 2012.

Not very clear what exactly is it caused dissatisfaction now.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
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