Graviteam
March 29, 2024, 06:12:29 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Infanty Vs Tanks question  (Read 25260 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:49:09 AM »

Hi chaps,

I've been playing APOS on and off quite a bit lately. I've noticed that the German Infantry (maybe the same for the Russians) don't seem to have (or use) any weapons to tackle Russian armour. I've read plenty of accounts of KV and T-34 tanks trundling along through German lines and without being halted by anything but artillery, point blank fire to vulnerable areas eg. the rear or tracks etc. and I think this is well represented in the game. I've also read plenty of stories of infantry using telermines, stick grenade bundles and magnetic/sticky hollow charged weapons to combat tanks or at least disable them. I appreciate that these were desperate measures and that chances of success weren't always great but as it stands infantry just attack with firearms and ordinary stick grenades (on rare occasions) and generally get mowed down. Either infantry should refuse to attack a tank at all, approach stealthily using cover eg. in a town situation etc., run away or get up close and use whatever anti-tank weapons they have. I've seen a squad of german infantry surround a tank, fire at it with their small arms until the tank has shot them all to bits. Yesterday I had a solitary KV-1 tank roam through a village destroying everything in sight and my infantry were absolutely powerless to even attempt to disable it. Every time Russian armour appears it is more of less the kiss of death to whatever forces one has except for the very rare occasions when one has any armour.

I'm interested to hear what tactics you use with infantry vs tanks. I've tried stealthy approach, ambush, hunt etc. all without avail.

Thanks and regards

Aces
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:55:35 AM by Aces » Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »

1st thing to do if forced to try and fight a tank with infantry is see if they have anything that can do the job.  JUst use the roll over function over ammo icon and it will display all their ammo types and arms.  Stick grenades are pretty useless for this task...  The 6 bundle if deployed lucky might disable a track and get a mobility kill.  If the squad has the HH3 grenade you might get lucky and disable or kill the tank.  But the squad if it has any HH3's will have vary few.  The only hope is to set up an ambush and get the tank to blunder into it.  It  is NOT likly to succeed.  Against heavy tanks best that can be hoped for is to disable it. 

But the poor bloodly infantry need to get backed up with something able to deal with tanks.  Other tanks.....at guns.....even howiters (on screen types).  MAking sure that anywhere I suspect I may get hit with anything heavy having at least an arty spotter or commander with arty is what I do.  But withdrawing, hiding your infantry, or whatever is probably a better solution than fighting tanks with them.  If you are defending a town and all that is being sent at you is a tank......  Hide the infantry in the town and order to hold fire.  The tank by itself should not be able to capture town.  Now if infantry is along with them......  Well they can dig your infantry out and get support from the tank.  Your in trouble!.  fleeing might be a better idea and regroup later to fight when you have the abilty to win ground and hold it. 

Have to always remember that there are 2 layers to the game.  It make be better to let the enemy attack and give ground and then next turn envelop them in the tactical map.  Cutting that unit off from supply. I did this with a tiger tank platoon once.  Let them in deep then shut the door behind them. 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 12:58:11 PM »

Hi mate,

I'd settle for the occasional disabling of a tank or rather the chance of disabling a tank. I agree HH3's were rare, stick grenade bundles and T-mines not so much so. Engineers should have T-Mines on occasions. I'd be nice if German infantry could lob stick grenade bundles on the engine deck etc. or T-mines under the tracks once in a while.

Problem happens in scenarios with very few, if any, tanks or other anti-tank weapons so most of the time you end up with infantry units vs tanks especially the heavier models such as T-34 and KVs although the same applies to lighter tank and nothing to handle them if you give ground and let them pass by that's assuming that their tanks are happy not to seeks out and destroy your poor bloody infantry as they have nothing to give them a chance.

I think that the German infantry should posses at least a slight chance against armour especially in heavily wooded terrain and towns with plenty of concealment options to hand. I don't wish them to have unrealistic, super-human abilities but even when they do have HH3s (rarely) they tend not to use them even with the hold-fire order.

Cheers and regards

Aces
Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

Hi mate,

I'd settle for the occasional disabling of a tank or rather the chance of disabling a tank. I agree HH3's were rare, stick grenade bundles and T-mines not so much so. Engineers should have T-Mines on occasions. I'd be nice if German infantry could lob stick grenade bundles on the engine deck etc. or T-mines under the tracks once in a while.

Problem happens in scenarios with very few, if any, tanks or other anti-tank weapons so most of the time you end up with infantry units vs tanks especially the heavier models such as T-34 and KVs although the same applies to lighter tank and nothing to handle them if you give ground and let them pass by that's assuming that their tanks are happy not to seeks out and destroy your poor bloody infantry as they have nothing to give them a chance.

I think that the German infantry should posses at least a slight chance against armour especially in heavily wooded terrain and towns with plenty of concealment options to hand. I don't wish them to have unrealistic, super-human abilities but even when they do have HH3s (rarely) they tend not to use them even with the hold-fire order.

Cheers and regards

Aces

Yes all true....  Tongue 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 01:27:47 PM »

As you know, IRL, tanks without close infantry support, especially buttoned down were very vulnerable in towns and dense vegetation etc.. but in the game they more or less seem to have full reign.
Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
Lemonade
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 191


« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »

Very often I see enemy tanks massacring troops in very thick woods even during the night or early dawn hours, when it's still almost pitch black. How buttoned up tank crews are able to acquire their targets in those circumstances is beyond me.

WARNING SPOILER FOLLOWS!
.
.
.
.
If you want to experience it on your own skin, a perfect example of this is Rakitnoe Operation played from the Soviet perspective. There's a platoon of Tiger tanks advancing through the woods on the 3rd Tank Army's 104 Infantry Brigade (western part of the map). Most of the time those tanks drive through narrow, dirt forest paths and if you place your troops to cut enemy advance with an ambush, those tanks behave almost like they had night vision goggles on their equipment checklist. Was it that easy for WW2 tankers to spot a human silhouette from within their vehicle that is surrounded by vegetation, trees and darkness?
Not to mention how do they manage to drive without their lights on. I've been to the woods at night a couple of times and I had trouble to even see my risen hand. Of course, there's the moonlight and all different lighting conditions bound with that, but there's still that buttoned up tank vision against human eye of a infantryman who is hiding behind some bushes or a tree.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:16:28 PM by Lemonade » Logged
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 05:28:29 PM »

Very often I see enemy tanks massacring troops in very thick woods even during the night or early dawn hours, when it's still almost pitch black. How buttoned up tank crews are able to acquire their targets in those circumstances is beyond me.

WARNING SPOILER FOLLOWS!
.
.
.
.
If you want to experience it on your own skin, a perfect example of this is Rakitnoe Operation played from the Soviet perspective. There's a platoon of Tiger tanks advancing through the woods on the 3rd Tank Army's 104 Infantry Brigade (western part of the map). Most of the time those tanks drive through narrow, dirt forest paths and if you place your troops to cut enemy advance with an ambush, those tanks behave almost like they had night vision goggles on their equipment checklist. Was it that easy for WW2 tankers to spot a human silhouette from within their vehicle that is surrounded by vegetation, trees and darkness?
Not to mention how do they manage to drive without their lights on. I've been to the woods at night a couple of times and I had trouble to even see my risen hand. Of course, there's the moonlight and all different lighting conditions bound with that, but there's still that buttoned up tank vision against human eye of a infantryman who is hiding behind some bushes or a tree.

Is this with alpha?  As it seems its pretty far the other way now (except with tiger).  ANd tiger tank I have questions about its spotting ability.  Seems way to good most of times even with skill level vary low. 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
wodin
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 500


« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 06:43:16 PM »

I agree German Inf against Russian tanks have no chance..the Russian Inf have molotov cocktails that help them out. I've noticed German

 Inf throwing grenade bundles at Russian inf rather than saving them for armour..also where are the teller mines etc?

I think it needs looking at..at the moment Russian Armour has a field day against German Inf as mentioned even in woods in the dark. Sometimes German Inf are close enough to get ontop of the tank and drop grenades into the hatches or at least use grenade bundles to disable it, but they've usually thrown all of them already at Infantry units..but hey just stand there waiting to be shot..
Logged
Lemonade
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 191


« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 12:23:10 AM »

Is this with alpha?  As it seems its pretty far the other way now (except with tiger).  ANd tiger tank I have questions about its spotting ability.  Seems way to good most of times even with skill level vary low. 
Yes it happens with alpha patch, even though Realistic View is enabled and all other settings are set to be most realistic.  Huh?
Logged
Redmarkus4
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 157


« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »

Referencing photos of German infantry standing on top of immobile Soviet tanks and trying to open the hatches with crowbars, I think the problems infantry faced in the period are well modeled by the game engine.

However, even though the campaigns may be historically accurate, I think that for game-play purposes it would be more interesting if both sides were given a force mix that supplies at least some tank, AT and other tools in every battle.

At least we should have an option to choose that a-historical force mix, IMO.
Logged
lavish
Oberst
******
Posts: 208


« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 04:30:35 PM »

At least we should have an option to choose that a-historical force mix, IMO.

I recall this option is already there - look for option and disable 4.01 historical units. Maybe that does it (I've never tried)?
Logged
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 6642


Jerk developer


« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 04:35:55 PM »

At least we should have an option to choose that a-historical force mix, IMO.

I recall this option is already there - look for option and disable 4.01 historical units. Maybe that does it (I've never tried)?
Yes this option expand available weapons and troops in pool.
Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2013, 04:58:40 PM »

At least we should have an option to choose that a-historical force mix, IMO.

I recall this option is already there - look for option and disable 4.01 historical units. Maybe that does it (I've never tried)?
Yes this option expand available weapons and troops in pool.

yes, turning historical units off makes things interesting.  But al would also point out that German infantry units also have a marder vehicle many times.  If the german infantry unit looses it anit tank defense then it maybe time to pull out and figure something else out.  THe Red Army infantry usally have much less anti armor capability.  The KS fuel bomb thing is only effective againt half tracks, marders, and if vary lucky catching an unbuttoned tank.   RPG 40 anti tank hand grenade is pretty useless against later model pz3, 4's and stugs.  But gets the job done on halftracks, pz2, earlier pz3, and the like.  THe germans hh3 is MUCH better at killing t34's but it limited supply.  The rifle fired grenade K98 with grenade launcher the germans have is not good at all against t34 or kv1 but can easily kill t60 and t70.  Its a tactics game at battalion level right?  If your infantry are faced with fighting tanks why the hell are you not pulling them out and get somehting there that can do the job?  Try playing some of the Red army campaigns against the germans massive armored force.  Usually the german side is alot easier than Red Army.  Theres usually laot of manuver room on tactical map.  Pulling unit out either by moving before battle if you know there amount to get hit with tanks or fleeing even and then counter attacking nexr turn with better force before they can dig in is a better solution than doing this insane to the last man death stuff.  Germans vary often would jab, duck, pull back and then reattack when they had what they needed to get the mission done.  Just saying............... 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
Tanker
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1134

BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2013, 08:49:09 PM »

Yes all good advice Flashburn, but sometimes you just are involved in a Stalingrad situation.
Logged

Bring back 3D markers!
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 09:19:32 PM »

Yes all good advice Flashburn, but sometimes you just are involved in a Stalingrad situation.

LOL I did 2 hours ago....  Massed German armor against my infantry and 2 t34's.  Got slaughered BUT also got the armor to turn around by damaging the dang things with at rifles and an arty spotter that should get teh  hero of the soviet union medal.  LOL he was hiding in a trench surronded by tanks.  He then called in all arty on his possition.  Cheesy  poor guy.  But the tanks turned around after that and the germans asked for a siece fire.   Tongue
Logged

Yabba dabba do
BigDuke66
Major
****
Posts: 73



« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2013, 09:59:32 AM »

Well had my depot just overrun by a mass of Matildas, so I also wonder if the infantry wouldn't improvise just about anything they could get to make some AT devices.
But it looks like we are stuck with grenades for now.
Of the grenades in the game I can identify the (M-24, RPG-40 and HHl 3 but what are G.L 3 and SZ-3?

I also wonder if the penetration values are correct, the Russian RPG-40 has 30 but I see sources talking of 20 what is more or less the same as the the German M-24 can do.
Also the HHl 3 seems weak, should have penetration of 140mm and not 85.

Here an overview of what was used:
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-grenades/index.html
Logged

"Spread word to every slave, that even the mighty republic bleeds when struck!"
THE BLITZ WARGAMING CLUB
Mission: To help the rookies, connect the regulars and honor the hardcore!
JOIN AT http://www.theblitz.org
BigDuke66
Major
****
Posts: 73



« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2013, 10:14:50 AM »

Here is something really interesting, unfortunately in German but alone the drawings will show the various ways to attack a tank:
http://archiv.thingnetz.org/frei/Buecher%20vor%201945/H.Dv.%20469-4%20-%20Panzernahbekaempfung%20(1942).pdf
Logged

"Spread word to every slave, that even the mighty republic bleeds when struck!"
THE BLITZ WARGAMING CLUB
Mission: To help the rookies, connect the regulars and honor the hardcore!
JOIN AT http://www.theblitz.org
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2013, 10:21:11 AM »

I'd imagine that the GL is the Geballte Ladung (m-24 stick grenade bundle)

Or it could be the 3Kg demolition charge of the same name.

The SZ is a mystery.

Regards

Aces

Edit: There is and SZ3 3Kg Russian demolition charge.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 12:31:31 PM by Aces » Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 6642


Jerk developer


« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 12:59:25 PM »

Also the HHl 3 seems weak, should have penetration of 140mm and not 85.
_Later_ version with improved conical shape by normal - yes. But not earler version on 30 degress slope.

GL 3 is Geballte Ladung 3 kg - German explosive charge.
SZ 3 is Russian ones.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 01:01:35 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 01:28:49 PM »

BTW if demo charge is lucky enough to land on engine deck.....pretty dead tank Cheesy  Ask me how I know. 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!