Infanty Vs Tanks question

[Aces]

Okay, I'll bite , how do you know then

[Barleyman]

A wet behind ears recruit here. I recently bought APOS + 3 DLC:s on gamersgate sale. I ran into exact same situation that you're discussing here and in some other threads. Namely, soviet tanks are fairly easily able to route german infantry even when they drive right next to the guys with no infantry escort and the soldiers are in bushes or whatever.

Yes, before panzerfaust the Heer infantryman had fairly limited options. This did NOT include the situation where popovs drive their buttoned up tanks to the hitting distance, however.

So there are two conflicting ideas .. Without RPGs AT-capability is limited .. Tanks are extremely vulnerable close up to infantry and never do that voluntarily. What happens in APOS is that the T-34s drive right next to the infantry squad and calmly rotate their turrents while picking off the guys one by one.

I assume the current impotence of infantry AT weapons is because otherwise they'd wipe out the tanks driving way too up close to soldiers voluntarily.

[RedC]

So there are two conflicting ideas .. Without RPGs AT-capability is limited .. Tanks are extremely vulnerable close up to infantry and never do that voluntarily. What happens in APOS is that the T-34s drive right next to the infantry squad and calmly rotate their turrents while picking off the guys one by one.

I assume the current impotence of infantry AT weapons is because otherwise they'd wipe out the tanks driving way too up close to soldiers voluntarily.

Germans poses best infantry AT capabilities yet, and most numerous. You need to know which units are equipped with such and which are not. Its the same as sending regular German infantry group to do "urban combat", forgetting that Submachineguns aren't that numerous in the German army, and especially in your regular group only platoon commander has it, leaving your troops under-equipped to deal with that impending problems.

And about tank driving to them gunning them down, its combination of duty and fear, you pipe down hoping you aren't spotted and mangled, and you can't run away leaving your comrades or even worse get gunned down by a tank (or impending supporting units), hoping someone will take that tank down, or that it will move out, and your group could continue its plan so that all can end well.

Sending troops without any AT capability to do forced scouting, should be closely followed up with running away from any vehicle it comes across.

[BigDuke66]

Indeed if they get sooo close I would really like to see the infantry assault the tank.




Sometimes tanks are so close that a soldier could simply jump up, climb on the tank and drop a grenade into the tank to finish it off.

Point is, tanks should either keep distance so they don't get into close combat range, or should drive OVER the infantry to crush them.
Their behavior to simply drive right INTO them, to park there and start spraying HE rounds and MG fire around it seems weird and that the infantry just lets it happen is even weirder.
That's why tanks usually don't attack infantry in areas like towns where they don't have the benefit of a free field of fire and distance to the enemy.


But still in these videos it's interesting to see that even tanks fight back with some "normal" anti infantry weapons like pistols & grenades.
I guess this must also be modeled if the anti-tank capability of the infantry is better modeled.

Also that the infantry tries to blind the tank with Titanium tetrachloride(that even can make the crew bail out because of its irritant capability) and smoke grenades, in the game could help to either attack a tank or get away from it.
Also the active and passive use of mines, in the game mines could be used passively like digging in when unit stays stationary for a longer period but also actively in close combat.
Maybe engineers or higher HQs could "build" minefields in areas where a defensive position is established, maybe those could be distributed the way conscripts or supplies are spread in the game.

Also you see that rear troops are also  capable of fighting off tanks that did break thru the forward lines with very improvised devices such as fuel canisters.

[Lemonade]

Speaking about propaganda and instructional videos of that period, here's an interesting one - Close Combat Against Russian Tanks. It's pretty long (9 parts):

[wodin]

erm..in game I find the Germans are impotent compared to the Russians and thats all down to the Molotov's..they usually use up their demo charges and grenade bundles etc on the Inf and never have them on hand then when the tanks are right next to them. It's the only time the game doesn't look right..loads of Germans hanging around a Russian Tank..sometimes right next to it waiting to be picked off..some are close enough to get ontop and drop grenades through view slits etc etc..

So there are two conflicting ideas .. Without RPGs AT-capability is limited .. Tanks are extremely vulnerable close up to infantry and never do that voluntarily. What happens in APOS is that the T-34s drive right next to the infantry squad and calmly rotate their turrents while picking off the guys one by one.

I assume the current impotence of infantry AT weapons is because otherwise they'd wipe out the tanks driving way too up close to soldiers voluntarily.

Germans poses best infantry AT capabilities yet, and most numerous. You need to know which units are equipped with such and which are not. Its the same as sending regular German infantry group to do "urban combat", forgetting that Submachineguns aren't that numerous in the German army, and especially in your regular group only platoon commander has it, leaving your troops under-equipped to deal with that impending problems.

And about tank driving to them gunning them down, its combination of duty and fear, you pipe down hoping you aren't spotted and mangled, and you can't run away leaving your comrades or even worse get gunned down by a tank (or impending supporting units), hoping someone will take that tank down, or that it will move out, and your group could continue its plan so that all can end well.

Sending troops without any AT capability to do forced scouting, should be closely followed up with running away from any vehicle it comes across.

[Barleyman]

erm..in game I find the Germans are impotent compared to the Russians and thats all down to the Molotov's..they usually use up their demo charges and grenade bundles etc on the Inf and never have them on hand then when the tanks are right next to them. It's the only time the game doesn't look right..loads of Germans hanging around a Russian Tank..sometimes right next to it waiting to be picked off..some are close enough to get ontop and drop grenades through view slits etc etc..

There doesn't seem to be a way to directly close assault the tanks either. 1st time this happened to me infantry escort was bombarded to submission so the tanks drove up to my guys who had their full load of grenade buschels and even right next to a platoon of engineers with all kinds of high explosives. Apparently close proximity to a tank suppresses the guys really badly and they cannot act.

[RedC]

Well first, get rid yourselves from usual "hollywood-style" strategy/rpg game paradigms. 

First it must be admitted, that certain parts of (anti-tank) combat are left out, but those being very rare occasions of creative tank neutralization of the (trained) groups etc... There are no Soviet ground tarans (from pilots)...etc

Now, do you know fear of tank running towards your position (I did similar "training" in the ex.-socialist army, running towards the hole and tank going your way, needlessly to say people shitted their pants literally and I'll certainly never forget it, there was 0 danger), its presence, and you kissing the ground in terrifying fear of what is behind it, infantry or other enemy tanks coming? Is the tank pointed towards you, If I run will I be a traitor to my teammates or worse killed? Best thing you could hope for is a help from your own tanks, guns, comrades to help you survive as a team. Hoping in the wisdom of your commander ...etc  Because first and foremost thing of any soldier is self-preservation!

Throwing a demo charge while your comrades are around, possibly killing you in the process, in situation which is not yet so bleak (tank might pass, or stop spraying and leave, two second later Hans could come with his tanks...etc) draws certain moral situation which block you from doing such things. (there is specific psychology between soldiers in a unit...etc)

Also, you need to be sure that that unit is capable of harming a tank (not only by their name, soviets have engineers, they have almost no AT capability ), plus how is their moral, fatigue and experience play PARAMOUNT role in deciding above mentioned problems.

@wodin
I said the same for Soviets, that they are impotent compared to the Germans   , but then I found out that I'm using those units completely wrong. Both sides have totally different styles of play! As soviet I usually wished for armored transports...etc (Btw, KS bottles are useless against more armored vehicles)

[BigDuke66]

Speaking about propaganda and instructional videos of that period, here's an interesting one - Close Combat Against Russian Tanks. It's pretty long (9 parts):

Perfect that is the movie that depicts the stuff from the file(H.Dv. 469-4 - Panzernahbekämpfung (1942)) I have posted earlier.

[Lemonade]

I just noticed your post with the PDF. Page 31 is great. Jump on a tank, hack the engine grille with an axe and toss a potato masher inside. I think these kind of books as well as propaganda films (like "Man Against Tanks" or the one I posted the link to) were written/filmed by guys who spent the entire war behind a desk. I mean... jump on a tank with an axe? Sounds easy for a guy smoking a Cuban cigar in a quiet office, but almost impossible to accomplish for a soldier that sees tracked-death approaching his position. I guess...
Anyway thanks for digging this document out. Very interesting book.

[BigDuke66]

Of course a lot situations in those films & books are depicted in a much easier way than it really was but I'm sure that everything that was shown was also done in the war, of course it depends on the circumstances, if there is no supporting infantry and the tank is blinded it may work to jump on it hand hack your way thru the engine grill.

@RedC
Good points but those things you mentioned should be covered by the values that the infantry has in the game, experiences & moral, sure a unit with low moral and green soldiers in it won't be effective in anti-tank combat, but a veteran unit with the nerves & experience is surely capable of taking out a tank in one way or another.

[Lemonade]

I didn't mean to say that tactics described in the book were not used in the field. I just found that particular one hard to resist no to pick on. It's concept is ridiculous. If there were actual cases of German troopers axing and potato mashing a tank, then I think those guys should have been given a fully featured Knight's Crosses (with leaves, swords and diamonds) and immediately transferred to Berlin for propaganda purposes. The lame Joseph would have a lot to write and babble about to increase the morale on the home front.

[Barleyman]

Now, do you know fear of tank running towards your position (I did similar "training" in the ex.-socialist army, running towards the hole and tank going your way, needlessly to say people shitted their pants literally and I'll certainly never forget it, there was 0 danger), its presence, and you kissing the ground in terrifying fear of what is behind it, infantry or other enemy tanks coming? Is the tank pointed towards you, If I run will I be a traitor to my teammates or worse killed? Best thing you could hope for is a help from your own tanks, guns, comrades to help you survive as a team. Hoping in the wisdom of your commander ...etc  Because first and foremost thing of any soldier is self-preservation!

Throwing a demo charge while your comrades are around, possibly killing you in the process, in situation which is not yet so bleak (tank might pass, or stop spraying and leave, two second later Hans could come with his tanks...etc) draws certain moral situation which block you from doing such things. (there is specific psychology between soldiers in a unit...etc)

Unless you were in special forces, you'd pretty much qualify as "conscripts" in game terms. The men depicted in the game are veterans or even crack troops who have seen a lot of combat. Seeing (and surviving!) battle where other people are actively trying to kill you is a life-changing experience. In WWII times only about 25% of soldiers in fact used their weapons in combat. Many of those guys would classify as natural born killers - Improved weapons training increased that figure to about 90% in Vietnam but then you have other issues like people spraying the entire clip to jungle in one go. I've only been near APCs in real life and they're mostly intimidating because of being big noisy things that tend to run over you because the driver can't see much. Button up and the crew has almost no visibility except straight ahead and whatever the turret is pointing at. I'm sure panzer grenadiers or tankodesantiki would be a lot less intimidated as they're literally riding the tanks to combat.

In any case a minority of people can keep their head under extreme stress, another minority freezes and the normal guys pretty much hide/run away/panic.

[chashka17]

I didn't mean to say that tactics described in the book were not used in the field. I just found that particular one hard to resist no to pick on. It's concept is ridiculous. If there were actual cases of German troopers axing and potato mashing a tank, then I think those guys should have been given a fully featured Knight's Crosses (with leaves, swords and diamonds) and immediately transferred to Berlin for propaganda purposes. The lame Joseph would have a lot to write and babble about to increase the morale on the home front.

As far as the expectations of the Fuhrer go, I posted a little gem of helpful hints here
http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11178.msg32219#msg32219

The idea of rhyme & cartoon for training manuals has some interesting forms in WW2 Germany.  The idea of a Tiger tank as a hot girl for one.
http://usmbooks.com/tigerfibel.html

[Barleyman]

I think one reason the tanks are so good close up against infantry is the borg spotting. Buttoned up KV-1 seems uncannily easily aware some guys who were hiding in bushes are assaulting the tank from side/rear. I've seen tanks do funky manouvers like rotate hull + turret simultaneously to point the coax gun at soldiers behind the tank.

[RedC]

but a veteran unit with the nerves & experience is surely capable of taking out a tank in one way or another.

The point aren't the skill, anyone can pull the trigger. The point is to live. And no one more then veterans know how to survive, after all its the only point in war, and the reason they are still breathing.

Unless you were in special forces, you'd pretty much qualify as "conscripts" in game terms. The men depicted in the game are veterans or even crack troops who have seen a lot of combat. Seeing (and surviving!) battle where other people are actively trying to kill you is a life-changing experience. In WWII times only about 25% of soldiers in fact used their weapons in combat. Many of those guys would classify as natural born killers...

Well I don't know what kind of euphoria there is in western society about "special forces" and practical perspective of wars, but you can be sure that being pushed to the end, and fighting back for your own life is a life changing experience, you would see countless of profiles becoming killers in most gruesome way, not because they were "natural born killers" but because of the circumstance they were in, because of self-preservation. And no recorded history carries such an experience then the Eastern front. After all German army was the aggressor and invader, while Soviets fought for their homes and loved ones in fullest non-hollywoodish sense, so even in the beginning its totally different moral situation (not talking about emotional combat ecstasy). From that basis mix with different combat situations, and etc...
In war veterans differ from regular people, not only because they surpassed baptism of fire, but because they learned to survive, to listen and understand, and in the end, to know their fate in the upcoming operations. It was the German MG veterans who were afraid to open fire unless when absolutely needed in field, in fear of getting killed, they were veteran T-34 crews that waited silently in ambush for the enemy to come closer in even if their comrade's tank was blown 10 meters away.

[RedC]

I think one reason the tanks are so good close up against infantry is the borg spotting. Buttoned up KV-1 seems uncannily easily aware some guys who were hiding in bushes are assaulting the tank from side/rear. I've seen tanks do funky manouvers like rotate hull + turret simultaneously to point the coax gun at soldiers behind the tank.

Don't worry not only KV does that . Well only thing tanks had problem with was blind zones (around them) of fire. They had plenty of observation posts (have you ever looked trough any?) on a tank, so no one can escape easily... But there comes another problem, why can't infantry damage the observation ports with usually rounds? Its not added even as a feature.

[Tanker]

There is a reason that most tank commanders risked death by keeping their heads out of the hatches.  That's because the visiblity from the view slits was not good enough for proper situational awareness, in their experienced opinion. 

[BigDuke66]

There were not only blind zones of fire but also blind zones of observation, that's for sure.
Despite all these "viewing points" visibility and awareness once the hatches were closed was miserable.

[Flashburn]

I think one reason the tanks are so good close up against infantry is the borg spotting. Buttoned up KV-1 seems uncannily easily aware some guys who were hiding in bushes are assaulting the tank from side/rear. I've seen tanks do funky manouvers like rotate hull + turret simultaneously to point the coax gun at soldiers behind the tank.

Don't worry not only KV does that . Well only thing tanks had problem with was blind zones (around them) of fire. They had plenty of observation posts (have you ever looked trough any?) on a tank, so no one can escape easily... But there comes another problem, why can't infantry damage the observation ports with usually rounds? Its not added even as a feature.

It is not a feature....BUt no reason I can see why it could not be added.  Other than being Vary annoying and time to do.  But even if made a feature, honestly would not add much.