ON company of heros 2....

[Lemonade]

Behold, now is the Poland. What happened in the early '20s with the Russian prisoners after the end of the Soviet-Polish war. Is the democratic Marshal Pilsudski gave them to die of starvation in the camps?
Or what happened with German civilians in the 1945-46 years in the territories of Germany, who were transferred to Poland?

I'm sorry Andrey, but you're pushing it.
You're blaming Poles for high mortality rate in prison camps during Polish-Bolshevik war of 1919-1920. This issue surfaced right after Mikhail Gorbachev admitted that the Soviet Union was responsible for Katyn massacre of over 21 thousand Polish citizens in 1940 (including 10 thousand of military/police officers). Certain Soviet groups tried to justify that genocide by improper treatment of POWs by Polish military during the mentioned war (propaganda). They claimed the POWs were executed on purpose, which was corrected by "Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow" (Moscow 2004) by prof. Waldemar Rezmer, prof. Zbigniew Karpus (both from Nicolas Copernicus University in Torun), prof. Gennadij Matvejev (Moscow University) and many archivists from Poland and Russian Federation. This position is over one thousand pages and contains 338 source documents from Polish and Russian archives. According to it, the cause of death of the prisoners were illnesses like cholera, dysentery, typhoid fever and flu. This is very sad, but the camps were overcrowded, so it was near to impossible to maintain proper hygienic conditions inside them. And that's not only a problem of Polish POW camps. Such things happened in every POW camp of any nation. And please do remember that Poland in 1919-1921 has just regained its independence. Only to be attacked by Bolscheviks. The national administration was still crawling. You blame Piłusudzki for starving those POWs. The first World War has just ended, the famine was everywhere throughout the Europe. Do you really think that Red Army POWs who tried to invade our country were supposed to have higher priority in getting the food than civilians or the Polish army? Was our country the aggressor or was it the newborn Soviet Union?

Then you mention the expulsion of Germans and again blame the Poles for high mortality rate during its course. Let me tell you this Andrey, from 14 million German citizens that were expelled from the lands that were joined to Poland (after the Potsdam treaty), ca. 473 thousand died: 200,000 were deported to USSR and never returned, 60,000 died in Polish camps, 40,000 died in Soviet camps and 120,000 died from genocide done by Red Army. And while there might have been some executions done by Polish forces like in Nieszawa or Aleksandrów Kujawski, according to IPN (Institute of National Remembrance) those executions were supposedly carried out by MO (Citizens' Militia or Civic Militia) and UB (something like a Polish equivalent of NKVD, Germany's Gestapo or DDR's STAZI) - both were under high influence by Soviet apparatus, do not forget there was a famine, cold weather during expulsions, ilnesses, etc. I've never heard about AK (Armia Krajowa - Home Army) that was under the Polish government in exile performing mass executions of Deutsches Volk during that time. Please do post a source if it states otherwise.

At first my point was to prove that Soviet Union was THE proper enemy that is (or was?) pictured in many Hollywood flicks. I respect you Andrey for the great war simulation your game studio has done, but I simply don't understand why you defend the Soviet apparatus by claiming that every nation has done its part in the genocide. What's more, you're trying to attack one of of the nations that was amongst those that has suffered the most during the WW2 (from both: The Reich and Soviet Union) by stating false accusations. Why? What's the point of this?

I could come out here with all guns blazing and post a link to photos and pictures (they're horrifying) from OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) massacres done in Przebraże, Wołyń (Volhynia) and Podole on Polish infants, women and men, but what would be the point? That would divide us further and this was not my initial intention.

You said let's don't bring up the past. I strongly disagree because we should all learn from the history so we can prevent bad things to repeat, so that our children can live in a world full of peace, not war. Because that's what history is about.

[Tanker]

Krabb: I think Solzhenitsyn has quite a bit to say about a lot of things that were hidden.  I think he's worth reading just because how unpopular he was with the Soviet leadership.

But if you don't like him, try this writer.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/Teplyakov.html
Stalin's order Number 270 of August 16, 1941.  I quote it in part below.

International law states that military captivity is not a crime, "a prisoner of war must be as inviolable as the sovereignty of a people, and as sacred as a misfortune." This is for others, whereas for us there was a different law -- Stalin's Order No. 270.
 

If ... "instead of organizing resistance to the enemy, some Red Army men prefer to surrender, they shall be destroyed by all possible means, both ground-based and from the air, whereas the families of the Red Army men who have been taken prisoner shall be deprived of the state allowance [that is, rations] and relief."

The commanders and political officers ... "who surrender to the enemy shall be considered malicious deserters, whose families are liable to be arrested [just] as the families of deserters who have violated the oath and betrayed their Motherland."

Stalin hated Russian soldiers who surrendered so much he took vengence on their familes.

This is Stalin's orders, not Solzhenitzn's words.

[Krabb]

Krabb: I think Solzhenitsyn has quite a bit to say about a lot of things that were hidden.  I think he's worth reading just because how unpopular he was with the Soviet leadership.

Well, if you like to read lies about something you dislike, I understand why it is worth to read Solzhenitsyn.

On the order. Read carefully, you skipped an important part: "Commanders, and political officers who tear off their insignia and who desert to the rear, or surrender...". Not just surrender, but tear off insignia. This is a big difference, I think they should know what the consequences will be for that, even more so if they are officers. Now, the omission of the important parts is exactly what propaganda techniques do. Congrats, you mastered it (just joking).

"instead of organizing resistance to the enemy, some Red Army men prefer to surrender, they shall be destroyed by all possible means, both ground-based and from the air, whereas the families of the Red Army men who have been taken prisoner shall be deprived of the state allowance [that is, rations] and relief."

Many countries stop paying grants to families of deserters. Why they should receive money for a soldier who decided to not be a soldier.

OK, I understand your position, and I don't have time to make it through the lies which surround every time the root of all evil - Soviet Union. The topic was about COH2 anyway.

Lemonade, calm down, please. I think Andrey wants to tell you that every country has its skeleton in the closet. This is not the place to discuss why Poland tries to convience that it was a henocide in the case of SU, but just small circumstances in the case of Poland. And OUN, and UPA were bandits, they did a lot of bad things in Ukraine, Soviet Union fought them until the end of 50s, FYI.

[Flashburn]

* - If not to count Mao, who has much, much more blood on his hands than Stalin or Hitler.

I think Churchill, under his leadership built the biggest prisons camps in the world, the genocide of the Indians and the people of Africa, even after the World War II. But I understand this is "inconvenient version", as it turns out that Western governments such as vile as those with whom they supposedly are fighting.

But it certainly never make films and do not make games about this. The preferred trample the corpse of the murdered bear.

Exactly what prison camps are we talking about here?  Are you talking about Prisoner of war camps or what?  He would have had to go a long way to exceed the numbers of citizens in the gulags Andrey.

There is a country called India (now three countries India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). It was a colony of the United Kingdom during the Second World War and before, and what did the British there in this time. Typical "civilians in gulag" but during 100+ vs 10 years and in biggest scale.
Search by keyword Nehru Jawaharlal.

The famous picture of the topic:
http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/51/300px-vereshchagin-blowing_from_guns_in_british_india.jpg

But I understand that uncomfortable topic, and suddenly it turns out that Stalin compared to Churchill and UK in whole and almost no one tyranny.

An I can still remember where in the U.S. since the beginning of the war (1941) of all local civil Japanese. Are they planted in camps indiscriminately?
Where are the games and films about the horrors of the bloody Roosevelt?

Behold, now is the Poland. What happened in the early '20s with the Russian prisoners after the end of the Soviet-Polish war. Is the democratic Marshal Pilsudski gave them to die of starvation in the camps?
Or what happened with German civilians in the 1945-46 years in the territories of Germany, who were transferred to Poland?

As we can see if it is good to dig, you can find in every state a lot of very unsavory things.

P.S. The question arises. And why bring up the past?

Yes all persons of Japanese decent on the WEST coast where sent to these moron camps.  MNAY of these people where 2 or 3 generations removed from Japan, and a lot could not even speak Japanese.  Many died from broken hearts/minds.  Some died from often less than sanitary conditions.  Despite this a hell of a lot volunteered for the ARMY.  And those units raised from here where some of the most decorated units the army EVER fielded. They killed ALOT of Germans in the war.  And Hollywood has made a few movies about them over the years.  TOTAL shame event really. 

And the Brits when confronted with Indians willing to die at British hands with little to NO resistance went complete against the British sence of honor.  Had the Indians fought back on a large scale they never would have gotten their independence  back so fast.  I thing Gondi knew the British better than they knew themselves.  BUT had either of these been Hitlers Germany, Maos China, or Stalins USSR there would have been a hell of a lot more dead people. 

BUT the enemy at the gates view on the Eastern Front is the popular view in the west.  If this where fact for the war the USSR would never had beaten back the Germans.  When your home is being destroyed its easy for the brave ones to fight and give it their all.  Does not really matter who is in charge as its pretty cut and dry on the politics. And loosing is not really a viable option.

All nations have evil in the closet.  But some have ALOT of evil in the closet. 

[Lemonade]

Lemonade, calm down, please. I think Andrey wants to tell you that every country has its skeleton in the closet. This is not the place to discuss why Poland tries to convience that it was a henocide in the case of SU, but just small circumstances in the case of Poland. And OUN, and UPA were bandits, they did a lot of bad things in Ukraine, Soviet Union fought them until the end of 50s, FYI.

Yeah, I guess you're right, Krabb. I might have gone far too emotional with my posts. I'm sorry.
I understand now what you tried to say Andrey. But the form in which you used your arguments sounded like Poland deliberately starved those Russian prisoners to death and executed the repatriated Germans. And with this I couldn't agree with, because it's untrue.
I can't deny the fact that Poland do have some skeletons in her closet. You could probably dig them out. It's just they mostly were incidents outside of government's control, unlike in Soviet Union or 3rd Reich where directives have been issued from the high command of political apparatus.

[Kyth]

Okay and on that final note, the discussion is now closed.

If you wish to discuss CoH 2, please start another topic. It is a fascinating game in its own right - from the video it reminds me of 'Age of Empires'