Are tank guns correct?

[fabianfred]

All you read and in the documentary videos, most guns seem to have been able to penetrate and kill with a single shot...especially the Tiger....but in this sim it always takes two shots to stop a vehicle...even half-tracks or light tanks such as a Brumbar.
The legendary Tiger only seems to be able to kill with one shot at point blank range......and it is killed from hits to its frontal armour by guns which historically would not penetrate.

[frinik]

I have had that discussion/argument repeatedly with Mistwalker  in the last 2 year and I got nowhere. I was told that the value had been tested and found to be realistic without being given any specific data as to where did it come from . What I have done myself is experiment by tweak and test different higher values for both AP and HE hell for the kwk42, the kwk43, flak 36, the kwk 36 and even the d25 of the JS-2. I have now values( in the common res ) that are in my opinion more realistic and give better results. By tweaking the shot patterns in the same folders I also achieved more satisfying damage when hitting targets with either type of shell.

For example I have now increased the penetration value for the AP shells of the Tiger II from the vanilla 0.93 to 0.98 the JS-2 's from 0.97 to 1.02. I also slightly increased the Tiger 1 from 0.91 to 0.92 and the kwk42 of Panther/Jagdpanzer from 0.89 to 0.90. As well I corrected the velocity of the AP shell for the KwK42 which is listed as 925 m/s when all my readings indicate the correct value is 935 m/s. Finally one last little error/ oversight: the weight of the AP shells  for the Kwk36/42/43 is underestimated by 400 grams with values of 9.8 for the pzgr39 of the Tiger I instead of 10.2 (10.6 for the Tiger II) while the correct weight for the all the AP shells for all 75 mm guns( pak 40, Kwk40, Pak 39 is 7.2 kilos not 6.8 as listed.The reason for the oversight is that all German tank shells were outfitted with a 400 grams brass shell casing thu while the weight of the shell was 6.8 it actually increased to 7.2 once otufitted with the brass casing.

All thee adjutments make a difference in the penetration/damage potential of the gun in the game.

[Kyth]

I think there were also some re-worked armour maps from Natalia,

[fabianfred]

So I wasn't dreaming then....

is there a mod for this?....(hint hint)

[frinik]

( hint hint  ) I will send my NTA 1.6 common res files to Kyth so people can paste them into their game and get all the changes/adjustments that I have made this includes tweaks to explosions, smoke, shells velocity weight etc...I recommend that people paste them in lieu of their common res file in their game main data folder after making a back-up copy of their own common res file.

You will see that one shot kills are much more common without being excessively so. One thing needs to be said sometime the hit boxes in SF aren't as accurate as they should be. Also depending on the angle and part of the tank your shots hit it may take - as in real life - several shots to disable or kill any armour. I am a bit leery of German footage showing tanks blowing up sky-high after just one shot. They may have been staged for propaganda purposes although I am sure it did happen. On ething for sure with the changes I have made you`ll see a lot more tanks burning or smoking on your battlefields....

[fabianfred]

I think when Tigers were firing at Allied tanks....one shot brew were pretty common...

I just read these books on my Kindle....the first one is the best....IMHO..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003VTZSHC/ref=oh_d__o04_details_o04__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005D7FKJQ/ref=oh_d__o03_details_o03__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BM4SLNQ/ref=oh_d__o02_details_o02__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007QUY4KO/ref=oh_d__o01_details_o01__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[frinik]

Yes it did happen when a Tiger I, II or a Panther would shoot a T34/76 or Sherman at close range but with distance probably not that frequently... What I am saying is that shots can glance off or be deflected depending on the angle. But I promise that with the change that I have made you'll see a difference.

BTW I find the Sherman way too tough in the game. It take me too often 3 to 4 shots to kill one. As well the 76 mm I also too powerful compared to real life data .I have lowered it's penetration value form 0.79 to 0.76 and increased slightly the arm_frail. I have increased the arm_ strength of the Tiger I, II, Panther, JS-2 in the tech_cfg files the results are satisfying.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Yes it did happen when a Tiger I, II or a Panther would shoot a T34/76 or Sherman at close range but with distance probably not that frequently... What I am saying is that shots can glance off or be deflected depending on the angle. But I promise that with the change that I have made you'll see a difference.

BTW I find the Sherman way too tough in the game. It take me too often 3 to 4 shots to kill one. As well the 76 mm I also too powerful compared to real life data .I have lowered it's penetration value form 0.79 to 0.76 and increased slightly the arm_frail. I have increased the arm_ strength of the Tiger I, II, Panther, JS-2 in the tech_cfg files the results are satisfying.

Thanks, looking forward to trying this!

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

I think when Tigers were firing at Allied tanks....one shot brew were pretty common...

I just read these books on my Kindle....the first one is the best....IMHO..

Yep, been reading "Tiger" (kindle app on iPad) and "Tigers in Combat II", the action reports, once they got the range  , lucky tungsten was scarce, kill ratio would have been crazy.   ...thanks for those links, have seen them as suggested reads via Amazon's algorithm, but I'll trust someone on this site more.

[Kyth]

Okay! I have posted for download the revised files which Frinik has promised. Consisting of the common_res.engcfg, tech_cfg files and new sound files. In his own words:

I have made changes to most tech_cfg files as far as the corrected amount of shells and bullets is concerned. At least for the German tanks as I suspected the Soviet ones were correct. I also adjusted all bb rounds values ranging from 5.0 to 8.0 to3.0 for consistency reasons. I also corrected discrepancies in arm_str and arm_frail of various tanks and apcs as there were inconsistencies even between similar models ( pz 38(t), stugs , T34s etc ).I also made the Tigers and Panthers a tad stronger to reflect their real life toughness without exaggerating. It was quite an arduous and  thankless labour but it's done. Many tanks now have the correct values with sometime slower amounts of shells and bullets sometime shigher. for the Tigers and Panthers I distributed the corrected amounts of shells as per my preference more AP less HE as it seems the Germans favoured this as the war went on they were more and more into fighting tamks vs tanks rather than tackling infantry or fortified emplacements.
 
Re the Common Res I have corrected some errors in shell velocity for the Panther L 70 and Pz IV H L48 guns. I also increased penetration values for some tanks including Panthers/Jagdpaz IV, Tigers/Jagdpanther, JS-2. I tweaked explosion values, smoke effects for fire, shell bursts, explosions , HE impact, engine exhaust etc. All in all I am happy with the results.
 
I also modified some of the guns name i.e the Tiger II /Jadgpanther and Ferdinand now have their own real gun the KwK43 as I created a sound for it. Likewise the KwK42 for Panther and Jagdpanzer IV .

Lots of work but worth it.
 
For best results I recommend pasting my tec_cfg and common res files in lieu of the original ones in the game main data folder after making back-up copies.I have tested verything and no issues.

Get them here!
https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0Bw-dX8HhpsH8ZFhpRGhBcEt3MkE

Good luck and let him know how it goes!

[frinik]

If anything goes wrong remember that they were posted by Kyth!

[lockie]

This mod is another confirmation that SF still alive! I know how much time takes editing and I'm glad that users still contribute to the game. Thanks Frinik!

[frinik]

My pleasure but if it goes awry remember Kyth is the one to blame!!!!

Actually this is what's great about this game is that so many are contributing and helping make this game what it is now. I can only think of you, Kyth, Deviator, Stone 2009, Donken, Whukid , ysl990, Lajcak, Rends, Fabianfred, Friedrich Wilhelm, Panzerfaust, Mistwalker , Natalia, Andrey456 etc who all have made all in your own way made important contributions to this game each adding a block or a whole house sometimes to take this low profile but well made sim into a very complete and immersive game which only Panzer Elite can possible rival in terms of WW2 tanksim. I am just one of the many blocks this game is made of.... Anyway it's thanks to all of you that I have been enjoying this game for over 4 years now.

What's funny is when I bought this game back in October or November 2008 after furiously playing TvsT for 6 months and then looking for a similar game but not broken down and with something more than 12 repetitive, scripted missions it wouldn't run on my Acer laptop nor on my other one a Fujitsu-Siemens. Thus I shelved it for 6 months until I purchased a Toshiba satellite which lo and behold was able to run it . This started me after getting the hang of the interface and finding the Russian Avia forum which had so many mods and missions. Our forum was pretty much non existent in those days so I had to rely on our Russian-Ukrainian comrades to get info and mods. I am happy I didn't give up and let SF gather dust in a box or even trade it for another game...

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Okay! I have posted for download the revised files which Frinik has promised. Consisting of the common_res.engcfg, tech_cfg files and new sound files. In his own words:

Thanks, just off the top (using a file comparison tool) glad to see the increase in the tigers ammo, just read about how crews would carry more then designed, putting ammo every where they could.

Also, where is/a legend/reference to the numbers. example: ...,853,50,0.85,0.1,0,1,1,0,10.9,0.06,0.2,6,0.5,0.5,0.1,0,1,1,1,... I see the velocity and penetration numbers.     

[frinik]

The numbers of shells are found in the tech_cfg file of each tank.The Common res only deal with the technical info for the gun used and the shells. Here's the ammo complement entry for the T34/85 tech_cfg file:


   //áîåêîìïëåêò
   shells()
   {
      //èìÿ ñíàðÿäà, êîëè÷åñòâî
      BR365,      5, 0, 0;
      BR365K,      12, 0, 0;
      O365K,      36, 0, 1;
      BR365P,      5, 0, 0;

      BUL_762,      1953, 0, -1;
      BUL_762P,   28, 0, -1;
   }

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Quote from: Kyth on August 27, 2013, 01:50:16 PM

Okay! I have posted for download the revised files which Frinik has promised. Consisting of the common_res.engcfg, tech_cfg files and new sound files. In his own words:

Thanks, just off the top (using a file comparison tool) glad to see the increase in the tigers ammo, just read about how crews would carry more then designed, putting ammo every where they could.

Also, where is/a legend/reference to the numbers. example: ...,853,50,0.85,0.1,0,1,1,0,10.9,0.06,0.2,6,0.5,0.5,0.1,0,1,1,1,... I see the velocity and penetration numbers. 

The numbers of shells are found in the tech_cfg file of each tank.The Common res only deal with the technical info for the gun used and the shells. Here's the ammo complement entry for the T34/85 tech_cfg file:


   //áîåêîìïëåêò
   shells()
   {
      //èìÿ ñíàðÿäà, êîëè÷åñòâî
      BR365,      5, 0, 0;
      BR365K,      12, 0, 0;
      O365K,      36, 0, 1;
      BR365P,      5, 0, 0;

      BUL_762,      1953, 0, -1;
      BUL_762P,   28, 0, -1;
   }

Thanks for the response, Sorry, I was complementing you on your change of ammo storage change and was interested in the ammo's "power" settings, what each of these mean...,853,50,0.85,0.1,0,1,1,0,10.9,0.06,0.2,6,0.5,0.5,0.1,0,1,1,1,...?

[Kyth]

and was interested in the ammo's "power" settings, what each of these mean...,853,50,0.85,0.1,0,1,1,0,10.9,0.06,0.2,6,0.5,0.5,0.1,0,1,1,1,...?

Each shell entry has 47 fields.
Here's as clear an explanation as I can get for them:

1 Name
2 Flag
3 Type
4 Name of Gun
5 Initial velocity, m / s
6 Length of the barrel for which we have the initial velocity, cal
7 Armor Piercing action
8 Normal at which ricochet
9 Cumulative action (diameter of core for piercing)
10 Concussive action
11 Fragmentation
12 Incendiary
13 Projectile weight, kg
14 Weight of explosives, kg
15 Air Resistance k1
16 Influence of gravity m / s ^ 2
17 KVO x
18 KVO y
19 The tendency to fracture
20 Time of engine (gas generator),s
21 Effect of Wind
22 Air Resistance k2
23 Air Resistance k3
24 Sound hitting the ground
25 Sound contact with armor
26 Sound entering the building
27 Sound contact with water
28 Sound contact with human
29 sounds of flight projectile
30 Type of target for AI
31 Effective range, m
32 Shot Penalty for AI
33 Textual name
34 Pattern of explosion
35 Pattern of rebound
36 Pattern of fragments
37 Modes of a projectile (0 - without breaking, 0x1 - impact, 0x2 - delayed, 0x4 - input the distance)
38 Time of detonation, ms
39 Minimum delay time, ms
40 The maximum delay time, ms
41 Number of steps
42 Color of the tracer
43 Time of burning tracer, s
44 Reliability of shell (for armor piercing)
45 Interface shell-sprite number
46 Name of the shell object
47 Name of the shell casing object

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Each shell entry has 47 fields.
Here's as clear an explanation as I can get for them:

Thanks m8!
- Are there documents that explain the scripts, as you just did?

[Donken]

During my years of modding i saved up a few translated files. All my "modding" files can be found here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xhp07jt0cehhjg0/yEiLtVcETd

Most of the files are directly translated from a translator (never bothered to translate it correctly) so a few things can sound a little bit weird. Not my fault

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

During my years of modding i saved up a few translated files. All my "modding" files can be found here:

Thanks man, looks good!!!