Are tank guns correct?

[natalia99a]

i did the gun for jagdpanzer4
am firing at a pillbox at 500m set with the armor settings you provided, will try to get tiger pzgr39 done before i go to bed

[natalia99a]

ok here is tigerI's pzgr39_88k
piercing is set to 2.999 to penetrate 220mm at 90° the equal to 110 at 30°
this has higher penetrate setting than that from jagdpanzer to penetrate thinner steel because of less velocity.
also without the wind drag being set these will be more powerful at long range

[frinik]

If I may intervene there are other ways to increase or tweak the penetration values  of the shells without increasing too much the set values in the common res to the point that the optics have to be recalibrated.

There are 2 paragraphs in the common res which I have been tweaking for quite some time and allow me to increase the killing power of both AP and HE.Here's a look at the 2 paragraphs modified( I highlighted in bold the changes so you can compare with the default values):



vis_expl_pats()
{
ap_expl_pat,75,ap_expl,61,0.5;
heat_expl_pat,75,he_expl,70,0.5;
he_expl_pat,75,he_expl,88,0.5;
apsc_expl_pat,75,sc_expl,0,0;
sh_expl_pat,75,sh_expl,53,0.5;
apmg_expl_pat,7.62,mgun_expl,0,0;
gun_shot_pat,75,gun_shot,30,0.5;
mgun_shot_pat,7.62,mgun_shot,2.9,0.5;
rico_pat,50,shell_rico,0,0.5;
rico_pat_bul,7.62,mgun_expl,0,0.5;
piece_pat,50,mgun_expl,0,0.5;
det_expl_pat,75,det_expl,155,2;
smk_expl_pat,100,smk_expl,88,0.5;
}
phys_expl_pats()
{
ap_expl_pat,75,3,1.2,3,2,0.4,9100;
heat_expl_pat,75,3,1,5,4,0.5,10000;
he_expl_pat,75,4.5,1.5,7,4,0.7,13500;
apsc_expl_pat,20,0.7,0.5,0,0.8,0,0;
sh_expl_pat,75,3,0.8,6,2,0.4,9100;
apmg_expl_pat,7.62,0,0,0,0,0,500;
det_expl_pat,100,6,0.5,15,10,0.8,20800;
smk_expl_pat,100,0,0,3.3,5,0.4,3500;
}

I also increased both penetration values for the Tiger II from 0,93 to 0.98 and I can kill a T34/85 with one shot at 2359 metres ( my own record) .The JS-2's from 0.97 to 1.02( I killed a Panther at 1872 metres), the Panther from 0.89 to 0.91( record kill a T34/85 at 1977 metres ) and the Tiger I to 0.92 ( my record a T34/85 at 2122 metres ).These tweaks affect all shells all tanks but then you can always reduce the penetration values of some type of shells to re balance or make it more realistic. These values do not affect the calibration of the gun sights. That's one advantage.

You can also tweak the concussive, explosive values in the shell entries.

I understand Natalia's point and I do not disagree with her conclusions on the contrary I entirely concur but I think we need to look at various approaches on how to solve the problem without having to recalibrate the optics...... 

[natalia99a]

I cant sleep
just adjusting the penetration values dont mess up the sights, what messes things up is the wind drag needed to slow the shell enough so it has proper energy when it hit the target.
its kind of like tying a parachute to a ball, it will decelerate rather quickly. I just fire at targets with thicknesses that are accurate (as accurate as i can get) for a given shell at 4 distances, perhaps an insane project but it was sure exciting when the br350a performed exactly as i had read 

[frinik]

Sorry I misread your post....   Still I would be leery of setting the penetration values too far off the default values ion the game as it would turn some of the tanks in super killing machines with the result that the missions would turn into a one-sided kill-fest. Thus I would suggest tinkering with penetration values, the settings I posted, the wind drag values.

BTW way did you adjust the wind drag values or did you leave them as they are?

[natalia99a]

no, the only thing change was the penetration value to make the gun penetrate what it could in reality at 500m, the wind drag provided already does slow the shell enough that it wont penetrate the 1000m target with the 500m thickness.
if im confusing please tell me

[frinik]

So we need to adjust downwards( decrease) the wind drag value is that it?

[natalia99a]

you cant just increase drag or penetration without firing at a target with a known angle, range or thickness.
the target has to be a flat surface preferably 30° but since none exist to my knowledge, pillboxes have to suffice. if u use a tank as a targe you will never get anything close to accurate, the slightest vary on angle changes everything.
Take t34 for example: 45mm side armor at 50° and you are firing 40° off to side, the combined angle is 29.498704231103652 which will give the armor an equal thickness of 91mm.
Now since i am using targets at 90° the armor has to be double that of 30° tests.
Looking at a firing chart for a given shell from a given gun usualy at 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000m
First thing i do is increase penetration till i can at least penetrate target 60% of the time, then i change pillbox armor to that of the 1000m thickness on chart, it can happen that the shell blasts through that thickness even at 1500. And thats where wind drag needs to be increased.
Now assume drag has been increased to where it no longer penetrates 1500m target with 1000m armor setting, u must then fire 500m target with 500m armor setting, if it fails then u need to up penetration.
This goes on till the shells penetration match the penetration chart.
The unfortunate end is sights that fall off more as range increases, gravity can be set to a limited amount but then close up the shells can shoot high depending how much it is changed.
Every shell is different depending on weight and velocity so what works on one wont work on the other, they are all starting from the beginning and take many hours
The current settings im going to work on for my game will simply be correct at 500m without any changes other than penetration, as i get them done i will share them with anyone that wishes to try

[lockie]

as i get them done i will share them with anyone that wishes to try

That would be very interesting. Also I'd recommend the next trick to provide the `clear` experiment:
http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
- eliminate a shell deviation along X/Y axes
17 KVO x (deviation on X)
18 KVO y (deviation on Y)
- eliminate 19 The tendency to fracture
In case of the BR350A(T-34/76) shell it'll look like this:
BR350A,0x01,%SHELL_AP%,F34,662,42,0.8,0.15,0,1,1,0,6.3,0.155,0.11,6,0.0,0.0,0.0,0,1,1,1,expl_gndl*,expl_techl*,expl_buildl*,expl_water*,expl_human*,fly1,0,1500,1,txt_shell_br350a,ap_expl_pat,rico_pat,piece_pat,0x1,1,1,1,1,0xffff4040,3,1,2,SHELL_BR350A,SHELLC_T34;

Of course, if u didn't apply mentioned changes before  8)

[natalia99a]

Thank you for those settings lockie, i never thought of that
here are new settings for tiger and jagdpanzer as well as t34 76, i mistakenly set the wrong pillbox in techconfig. I am very sorry this

Jagdpanzer pzgr39_42L70   2.483
Tiger I  pzgr39_88k              2.789
T34-76  br350a                    1.189

[frinik]

Jagdpanzer pzgr39_42L70   2.483
Tiger I  pzgr39_88k              2.789
T34-76  br350a                    1.189

These are the new penetration values for the AP shells in the common res correct?

Have you tried tweaking or playing with the HE as well?

[natalia99a]

im afraid i havent had time to work on the he, if you like i will send you my target range so that everyone can do their own testing. soon i will have no time to work on the sim for a while.

[Donken]

As soon as i get my computer up and running at my new place i can make new test targets. For example static ones that is 2x2m with 30, 60 and 90 degree angle =)

[natalia99a]

30° targets would be super!! i wait with great anticipation

[Donken]

How do you check what penetrated or not? shooting ten times and then quit and check in the after mission report?

[natalia99a]

yes, thats how i have been doing it

[frinik]

Natalia could u please email me your modigfied common res folder so i can try ur modfications.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

phys_expl_pats()
{
ap_expl_pat,75,3,1.2,3,2,0.4,9100;
heat_expl_pat,75,3,1,5,4,0.5,10000;
he_expl_pat,75,4.5,1.5,7,4,0.7,13500;
apsc_expl_pat,20,0.7,0.5,0,0.8,0,0;
sh_expl_pat,75,3,0.8,6,2,0.4,9100;
apmg_expl_pat,7.62,0,0,0,0,0,500;
det_expl_pat,100,6,0.5,15,10,0.8,20800;
smk_expl_pat,100,0,0,3.3,5,0.4,3500;
}

Could you explain each value as you did for the shells?
                      1       2  3  4   5 6  7    8
example: ap_expl_pat,75,3,1.2,3,2,0.4,9100;
1) Explosion pattern name within shells data script: #34.
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8) ?Overall explosive kinetics?
Thanks in advance.

[frinik]

Basically what it doe is increases the strength of the explosion, makes the shells more likely to set the target ablaze, increase the amount of smoke and debris resulting from shells hitting both targets and detonating on the ground, generating a bigger blast radius. A well the damage values are increased for all categories of shells. The best way to find out is try it out! I have been using these values for over 19 month without any problems.

[lockie]

Is it possible to increase somehow the damage of the APC shells?