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Author Topic: Any update on Mius front?  (Read 289979 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2014, 06:39:32 AM »

Of course no split, no divide, no micromanage - only add, integrate or multiply. But in GTMF you can use sections in one click manner, of course w/o split. See in the next series at Sukhoi forum Smiley

I don't like micro-management much, either. But I'd like to see a clear demonstration that the AI can develop a plan which implements historical tactical doctrine, which reflects accurately historical levels of training, experience and command & control. That is, I'd like to see platoons developing a 'fix & flank' attacks, I'd like to see squads advancing on bounding overwatch, I'd like to see the AI to deploy a unit as a fire support element, etc.

With all due respect, I never got to see anything of the sort in GTOS.
Of course not.
This beautiful military phrases, but they are absolutely meaningless in terms of AI. AI operates on distinct algorithms, just solve the problem through some criteria. Usually solutions are not like humans.

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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
lavish
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« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2014, 08:34:16 AM »

Looks good and clean, though the icon of "optic LOS" is a bit cryptic to me - along with some other icons. I highly recommend you to make better icons that are more easily understood, if possible. But I'm not saying that's easy.  Smiley
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andrey12345
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« Reply #242 on: January 24, 2014, 12:46:39 PM »

Looks good and clean, though the icon of "optic LOS" is a bit cryptic to me - along with some other icons. I highly recommend you to make better icons that are more easily understood, if possible. But I'm not saying that's easy.  Smiley
What is an "optic LOS" icon?

Better icons, not redraw icons, but no icons and buttons at all, we move on this way Smiley
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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
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« Reply #243 on: January 24, 2014, 04:28:58 PM »

Looks good and clean, though the icon of "optic LOS" is a bit cryptic to me - along with some other icons. I highly recommend you to make better icons that are more easily understood, if possible. But I'm not saying that's easy.  Smiley
What is an "optic LOS" icon?
I mean button that shows vehicle LOS sectors?  Grin

Looks like this:

[-----T                where T is small tank

I understand that creating icons that have universal meaning is difficult.
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« Reply #244 on: January 24, 2014, 05:31:06 PM »



Of course not.
This beautiful military phrases, but they are absolutely meaningless in terms of AI. AI operates on distinct algorithms, just solve the problem through some criteria. Usually solutions are not like humans.



Isn't (or shouldn't) that be your goal?  To make the ai appear to act as humans.  If you are minimizing micromanagement then the commander should be able to order an attack on a position and depend on his ai Sergeants and 2nd Lieutenants to execute it in the best way possible.  The concepts that bletchley geek outlined are not merely beautiful phrases, they are solid military concepts that the ai should employ, if you are not going to allow the commander to micro manage their behavior and arrange things himself.
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wodin
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« Reply #245 on: January 24, 2014, 05:54:59 PM »

I agree..Bletchley stated what the TAc AI should do or try esp if your taking more control out of the players hands, the AI will have to really work very well indeed to carry out realistic movements etc without much player input....certainly not just beautiful phrases..seems very odd for you to say that Andrey..you should be developing the game and AI to actually do those sorts of things..(I have seen kind of bounding overwatch..i.e soldiers laying down fire while others move forward, though even Combat Mission does that with the assault command).

What you seem to be saying Andrey is the AI has no tactical coding or follow any sort of National combat doctrine or at least try and simulate it but I suppose just whether to walk, run and fire.

I'd love to give an attack order to two platoons and then watch say one sneak around to the enemies flank whilst the other is pinning it down from the front..then they both move in for attack..one straight up the middle..the other coming in from the flank. Now once the AI can do this sort of thing off it's own back I'd have no worries about having more control handed over to the Tac AI. Or watch a platoon use all available cover as it attacks using bounding over watch.  Be able to give an oder to a heavy MG platoon and again watch them then choose a good position for each MG within the area you gave the defense order etc etc.



Of course not.
This beautiful military phrases, but they are absolutely meaningless in terms of AI. AI operates on distinct algorithms, just solve the problem through some criteria. Usually solutions are not like humans.



Isn't (or shouldn't) that be your goal?  To make the ai appear to act as humans.  If you are minimizing micromanagement then the commander should be able to order an attack on a position and depend on his ai Sergeants and 2nd Lieutenants to execute it in the best way possible.  The concepts that bletchley geek outlined are not merely beautiful phrases, they are solid military concepts that the ai should employ, if you are not going to allow the commander to micro manage their behavior and arrange things himself.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 06:00:12 PM by wodin » Logged
andrey12345
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« Reply #246 on: January 24, 2014, 06:30:20 PM »

Looks good and clean, though the icon of "optic LOS" is a bit cryptic to me - along with some other icons. I highly recommend you to make better icons that are more easily understood, if possible. But I'm not saying that's easy.  Smiley
What is an "optic LOS" icon?
I mean button that shows vehicle LOS sectors?  Grin

Looks like this:

[-----T                where T is small tank

I understand that creating icons that have universal meaning is difficult.

Show vehicle sights. May be not the best icon but conveys the essence
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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
andrey12345
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« Reply #247 on: January 24, 2014, 06:41:58 PM »

Isn't (or shouldn't) that be your goal? 
Yes, I can write that we've got the most beautiful AI that can not be distinguished from a human, as is usually written in games advertising  Grin. But it will be marketing bullshit.
I hope everybody understands this, at least in depth Smiley

Its not goal its real state of things at this moment. Modern CPUs completly different architecture than human brain and use completly differents algos.
Modern computer allows to make the intellect (in human sence) about the level of a cockroach, may be a mouse. One for all units.

To make the ai appear to act as humans.  If you are minimizing micromanagement then the commander should be able to order an attack on a position and depend on his ai Sergeants and 2nd Lieutenants to execute it in the best way possible. 

Yes AI can try to  masquerade as a human. Not more.

The concepts that bletchley geek outlined are not merely beautiful phrases, they are solid military concepts that the ai should employ, if you are not going to allow the commander to micro manage their behavior and arrange things himself.
Its "solid military concepts" for human soldiers (Intelligence who thinks at level of 4-7 images/related objects, has an extremely low speed, but stunning parallelism), for AI its complete nonsence.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 07:26:38 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
Krabb
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« Reply #248 on: January 24, 2014, 07:57:08 PM »

Visibility analysis helpers on the deployment phase
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 04:28:03 PM by Krabb » Logged

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« Reply #249 on: January 25, 2014, 08:49:17 AM »

So we are to expect Less order options, Less menus, Less Quick battle force options, Less display options, Less squad control, Less target control, Same suffocating save, Same buildings, Same infantry graphics, Same infantry animations, Same deployment box restrictions, More mud, More colored squares, More vehicle line of sights, More towing/unhitching

You'll have to excuse my lack of enthusiasm.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #250 on: January 25, 2014, 11:09:15 AM »

So we are to expect

More order options, Less menus, More Quick battle force options, ....., More squad control,
"Less target control" - Dont understand what this Huh?, ...... , Less colored squares, Less vehicle line of sights
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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
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« Reply #251 on: January 25, 2014, 01:17:38 PM »

Placement in "bad" conditions
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 04:27:54 PM by Krabb » Logged

"(с Андреем) смысла спорить все равно нет" henrik
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andrey12345
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« Reply #252 on: January 25, 2014, 02:23:49 PM »

You'll have to excuse my lack of enthusiasm.

As I have said many times before the main course: more features, less superfluous.
Unnecessary options (the menu, not features in the game), duplicates in interface, incomprehensible and marginally useful items will be removed. At the same time, existing features will be polished and added new ones.

Will be worked separately with the visualization of complex things such as visibility, armor penetration, etc. I hope to many questions "why the AI ​​does not shoot / not see", etc, will be decreased.

We try to do complex things cheaper (not in simulation but in understanding). In simulation more complex than in GTOS Smiley
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:29:16 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
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« Reply #253 on: January 25, 2014, 04:26:44 PM »

Visualization and operation of sights
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« Reply #254 on: January 25, 2014, 05:26:21 PM »

I keep beating this dead horse Andrey. Cheesy

You say that ai can't think like a human.  Fine, I agree with you.

You say that you wish to limit the human player's ability to manage details because it's micro management.

If the ai is not good enough to follow a sound plan and you won't let a player manage the troops to follow that plan, what is left?

It seems that the management is left to an ai that can't do the job well enough.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #255 on: January 25, 2014, 05:56:10 PM »

I keep beating this dead horse Andrey. Cheesy
Ok Smiley


You say that ai can't think like a human.  Fine, I agree with you.
And it _work_ not like human. Its a main visible difference.

You say that you wish to limit the human player's ability to manage details because it's micro management.
In operational phase - limit yes, in tactical battle expand to some soft sort of MM, wait last translations from Sukhoi forum Smiley


If the ai is not good enough to follow a sound plan and you won't let a player manage the troops to follow that plan, what is left?

Same as real human commanders do in real life. As in our game they do not have the mental capabilities to manage each soldier. They can give orders and hope that somehow it will perform. And control is much less than in the game and for the executors often more stupid than our AI Smiley
If we go to real simulation "as human", we need to reproduce this process, right? Smiley

It seems that the management is left to an ai that can't do the job well enough.
That's good, you have _no guarantees_, but the right actions increase the probability execution of orders. As in real life.
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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
andrey12345
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« Reply #256 on: January 25, 2014, 08:00:06 PM »

Carefully see this vid


And feel the diffirence before humans and AIs

P.S. This is forefront of AIs with HUDGE budgets.
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Реклама для игры показывала отличную графику и обещала стратегию и тактику Второй мировой войны. На самом деле не было ни графики, ни стратегии, ни тактики. Игра представляла собой серию грубых иконок, которые при нажатии ничего не делали, кроме отображения текста.
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« Reply #257 on: January 25, 2014, 08:02:17 PM »

Maybe you can find the time soon to show us the new way you do orders and how they will look at the platoon level?

Are you saying I wont be able to select a squad and make an advance with it alone up a street while flanking with the other 2 squads?

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Missouri_Rebel
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« Reply #258 on: January 25, 2014, 08:04:44 PM »

Carefully see this vid


And feel the diffirence before humans and AIs

P.S. This is forefront of AIs with HUDGE budgets.

I don't think that robot is sober enough to drive.
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Krabb
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« Reply #259 on: January 25, 2014, 08:25:59 PM »

Squad sections and changes in unit selection
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"(с Андреем) смысла спорить все равно нет" henrik
"по хамскому и неадекватному поведению Андрея ясно, что спорить тут бессмысленно" Fritz
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