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Author Topic: Any update on Mius front?  (Read 297864 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #380 on: April 01, 2014, 07:13:53 PM »

If we forget the semantics, "order" is just an algorithm that makes units to move.
Generally it is algo to do anything. Move order is to move, other order is to do other things.

What is needed is not "recon" or "probe" (they are actions described by human, yes) but simply something that automatically prevents units from getting closer to enemy.
What is a "closer to enemy"?
25 m - is closer? may be 75 is closer? or may be 150 is closer?
If unit is aircraft?

If unit dont see enemy and accidently move 10 m closer to it?
What to do if enemy moves closer to our unit?

Its really tricky thing Smiley



At the moment the player needs to stop the unit manually each time, if the intention is not to engage.
These points are not clear to me. You wanted to attack, and then change your mind? If so, how to computer will determine this moment?

a) Engage and move as ordered. (This is what units always do in the game now)
Yes, if you dont use modifiers.

b) Engage, but stop and do NOT move. Notify the commander (player) and wait for new orders.
When would it want? And under what circumstances should occur?

c) Engage, but withdraw as soon as possible.
What means "as soon"  Cheesy?

All this looks like robot tactics - click trigger and wait Smiley

Engage (attack) it is a combination of movement and fire. If we discard movement by trigger its really strange things.

Now in game you can control priority of movement or fire.
If you set "fast move" or "tank forward" modifier you select movement priority
If you set "hidden move" (and not set "fast move") you select fire priority

Variant "stop if you see enemy", or even retreat if you see enemy - really strange. Because there are questions of how much and how far the enemy must seen, for which there is no answer, not only within the game interface, but also in general in the real world - it highly depends on the situation.



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« Reply #381 on: April 01, 2014, 11:04:11 PM »

Variant "stop if you see enemy", or even retreat if you see enemy - really strange. Because there are questions of how much and how far the enemy must seen, for which there is no answer, not only within the game interface, but also in general in the real world - it highly depends on the situation.

What's so strange about that?  "Advance to contact" is a standard operational procedure when moving towards an enemy of unknown strength. - ie at the first contact you take cover return fire and assess what your up against - if the enemy seems stronger you defend & wait for support or withdraw, if the enemy is equal or weaker you plan an attack. 
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« Reply #382 on: April 01, 2014, 11:17:34 PM »

Variant "stop if you see enemy", or even retreat if you see enemy - really strange. Because there are questions of how much and how far the enemy must seen, for which there is no answer, not only within the game interface, but also in general in the real world - it highly depends on the situation.

What's so strange about that?  "Advance to contact" is a standard operational procedure when moving towards an enemy of unknown strength. - ie at the first contact you take cover return fire and assess what your up against - if the enemy seems stronger you defend & wait for support or withdraw, if the enemy is equal or weaker you plan an attack. 

Pretty much...

And then for a scout all they generally care about is probing the enemy lines, destroying other scouts, and figuring out whats in front of the main body.  Well also condition  of the route for various sorts of units (infantry, trucks, armor).  But that is not needed in game. 


For units on the attack or defense would be nice if they did not wait to try and retreat until most of them where dead or all heavy units killed.  I guess the ability to count what they are up against and make the choice between continuing an attack and falling back.  For AI!  The human player should generally make this call for his/her side.  Perhaps weighted by the value of the flag objective.  Take a lot of loses for large ones.  Take fewer for smaller ones. 
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« Reply #383 on: April 01, 2014, 11:20:14 PM »

And will Mius get any modern DLC's like Hooper at some point?  I really DO like that feature of DLC's of different era in the same game.  Although smaller stand alone game might bring in more money/players. 
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andrey12345
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« Reply #384 on: April 02, 2014, 01:41:10 PM »

What's so strange about that?  "Advance to contact" is a standard operational procedure

you forgot add the main phrase in this place - for humans  Grin

The first thing that AI ask "What do you mean by the word "contact"?
Second what is "enemy seems! stronger!?! "?  Cheesy

Infantry squad see somthing like tank at 3 km, it is contact?
Tank + infantry squad get MG fire from the bushes at 50 m, it is contact? What to do - just die on the place, or retreat? Where? Why?


P.S. Ok, I promise, we think about "Advance to contact" modifier in Mius Smiley

« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 01:51:37 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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Dane49
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« Reply #385 on: April 02, 2014, 02:22:08 PM »

Quote
And will Mius get any modern DLC's like Hooper at some point?

I would like more modern DLCs also, but for Operation Star not Mius unless there is a way to port over all the stuff from Op Star to the Mius engine.

Maybe a DLC that adds 1980s NATO and Warsaw pact forces to use in QBs with helmets,flak jackets, a Golan Heights or Sinai map near the canal and some new vehicles and guns.
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Dane49
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« Reply #386 on: April 02, 2014, 03:41:43 PM »

Quote
P.S. Ok, I promise, we think about "Advance to contact" modifier in Mius  Smiley

I would like this too  8)
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« Reply #387 on: April 02, 2014, 04:49:51 PM »

What's so strange about that?  "Advance to contact" is a standard operational procedure

you forgot add the main phrase in this place - for humans  Grin

The first thing that AI ask "What do you mean by the word "contact"?
Second what is "enemy seems! stronger!?! "?  Cheesy

Infantry squad see somthing like tank at 3 km, it is contact?
Tank + infantry squad get MG fire from the bushes at 50 m, it is contact? What to do - just die on the place, or retreat? Where? Why?


P.S. Ok, I promise, we think about "Advance to contact" modifier in Mius Smiley



LOL there you go again Andrey. Grin  I, as a human player, don't care how the ai thinks in relation to the game.  Don't get me wrong, I think ai is a fascinating science but as a player of this game I don't care. It's your business to be concerned with it, not ours.  I, as a human player, am interested in how well the game simulates my contest against a "human" opponent (be that opponent an actual human or a simulated one). 

The above examples that you give about contact are child's play for a human to decide about but apparently not so easy for ai.  Until the ai can handle those kind of situations as flexibly as a human can, it can not correctly simulate a contest between two humans, which is what the game strives to simulate.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #388 on: April 02, 2014, 06:14:24 PM »

LOL there you go again Andrey. Grin  I, as a human player, don't care how the ai thinks in relation to the game. 

I hope you as human player feel the difference between abstract and specific  Grin. If you suspect that term is abstract - this term dont have sence for AI. Or need to be specified.


Don't get me wrong, I think ai is a fascinating science but as a player of this game I don't care. It's your business to be concerned with it, not ours.  I, as a human player, am interested in how well the game simulates my contest against a "human" opponent (be that opponent an actual human or a simulated one). 

Yes, but you have to offer somthing strange, nobody forces this Smiley.
Better to clarify what is it, because developers can understand it somehow differently  Grin


The above examples that you give about contact are child's play for a human to decide about but apparently not so easy for ai.  Until the ai can handle those kind of situations as flexibly as a human can, it can not correctly simulate a contest between two humans, which is what the game strives to simulate.

To simulate something we need to understand what you need. Especially in these difficult places. AI does not necessarily repeat how it makes people even more likely will not do that - because it is ineffective for AI. But to achieve the desired results we need to know the target, anyway.


Let us return to our child's level problem Grin What do you mean on term "contact"? 
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« Reply #389 on: April 02, 2014, 06:31:00 PM »

Let us return to our child's level problem Grin What do you mean on term "contact"? 

Visual contact with enemy troops Grin
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andrey12345
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« Reply #390 on: April 02, 2014, 06:34:17 PM »

Visual contact with enemy troops Grin

Okay Smiley

Are you absolutely absolutely sure and do not want to make any additions to this definition?

And we can take it as axiom in further discussion ?  Cheesy

"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" - its right?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 06:37:26 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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topnik
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« Reply #391 on: April 02, 2014, 06:40:29 PM »

Visual contact with enemy troops Grin

Okay Smiley

Are you absolutely absolutely sure and do not want to make any additions to this definition?

And we can take it as axiom in further discussion ?  Cheesy


At the moment yes. I'm sure you'll come up with something else  Grin
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topnik
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« Reply #392 on: April 02, 2014, 06:41:55 PM »


"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" - its right?

That looks like contact to me.
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Dane49
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« Reply #393 on: April 02, 2014, 06:49:01 PM »

I guess this is where Recon can get a little skewed.

Is it a combat recon mission or a intelligence gathering mission by a small force.

A small recon unit may want to hide as soon as the enemy is seen and just observe, where as a combat recon mission may expect the unit to push on and capture an objective and gather intel while performing its mission.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #394 on: April 02, 2014, 07:58:11 PM »

That looks like contact to me.

Okay, let it be Axiom #1

"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

Someone objected?


Is it a combat recon mission or a intelligence gathering mission by a small force.


You see, Dane49 is already feeling where it will catch and why this task is not for the children's level Smiley
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topnik
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« Reply #395 on: April 02, 2014, 08:39:28 PM »


You see, Dane49 is already feeling where it will catch and why this task is not for the children's level Smiley
I'd say let's focus on pure recon, where you just want to find where the enemy is and report its position (and possibly strength), without getting the recon unit wiped out.
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« Reply #396 on: April 02, 2014, 11:46:16 PM »

Well, it's not child's play to write algorithms for ai routines to account for all possible conditions.

It is however simple for me, as a human, if I was in direct control of any formation, to make an instant decision on how to proceed when gaining visual contact.

Writing programs to foresee every possible outcome has to be one of the hardest things to do.  That's why ai does not fly passenger jets yet.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:23:34 AM by Tanker » Logged

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« Reply #397 on: April 03, 2014, 01:47:15 AM »

I guess this is where Recon can get a little skewed.

Is it a combat recon mission or a intelligence gathering mission by a small force.

A small recon unit may want to hide as soon as the enemy is seen and just observe, where as a combat recon mission may expect the unit to push on and capture an objective and gather intel while performing its mission.

With a combat recon mission it is really just an attack.  There really is not anything vary scout like about it.  Make noise and see what you get hit with.   Which we have now with scout units.  Except they only fall back once they take a huge amount of kia or blown up gear.   So what I would like to see on that one is simply scout units fall back way sooner when taking losses.  Particularly for the AI.

Then the whole simple move to contact is a useful thing for human players.  You order your soldiers forward, they spot enemy and await your orders.  Quite useful.  For the AI on its own?  Don't think it would matter.

Just wish AI controlled scouts where not so suicidal.  But also regular units as well.  Why should they be taking 70 or 80 percent casualty rates for attacking a low level objective?  Seems like they should fall back much sooner for an objective that is not vary valuable.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #398 on: April 03, 2014, 07:38:31 AM »

It is however simple for me, as a human, if I was in direct control of any formation, to make an instant decision on how to proceed when gaining visual contact.

Take the time to conclusions. We shall return to this Smiley
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andrey12345
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« Reply #399 on: April 03, 2014, 08:20:26 AM »

Axiom #1
"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

Simple example
Blues - alied units
Reds - enemies
Blue lines - move (advance)
Black lines - visibility probe
Green areas - forest

1

2

3

4

5


Do you really want this force fragmentation?
Do you really think that this is Advance to contact?
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