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Author Topic: Any update on Mius front?  (Read 297869 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #400 on: April 03, 2014, 08:21:39 AM »

What do you mean on term "contact"?   Grin
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« Reply #401 on: April 03, 2014, 09:31:02 AM »

3, 4 and 5  are more like brake contact.  Which would certainly be nice. 


Advance to contact is simply moving till you hit the enemy.  Then find a good place to fight from.  From there the situation should be assessed as to what to do.  If the force is smaller than yours, attack through it.  If its the same size or larger and unit is able to hold its ground without losing to many people, you stick it out and fight.  Hopefully help comes as well.  If your way out numbered and have no chance to hold ground, fall back.  You go into a brake contact deal and fall back in good order ( in US lingo this is popping smoke, or obvious reasons....usually you throw smoke to help mask the rear ward movement).  Basically bounding over-watch in the other direction. For a US style force, a rally point would have been set on the fly by the leaders where to go if you have to fall back.  Everyone should know where to fall back too.  So if falling back in good order you head that way.  If its real bad and the unit looses cohesion, every man knows where to go and reform up. 

And at anytime as the situation develops you might change what your doing.  Go from defending what you have to trying to assault through.  To falling back to holding. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:48:33 AM by Flashburn » Logged

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« Reply #402 on: April 03, 2014, 09:40:46 AM »

If there is a way to get the ai commanders to count known enemy units and make its best guess on what to do (attack, defend, or fall back) under above example every 2 or 3 minutes that would be the best possible out come.  Even better if it could look at where its forces are and where the enemy forces are and decide how "good" the ground was.  But that is probably asking to much.   Grin
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« Reply #403 on: April 03, 2014, 09:56:07 AM »

Sorry for all the posts... Keep having new things to say.  Now I say what the general US does here as that was the basics of how I was trained.  I am sure its close to what the WW2 Germans where doing as well.  But what was the Red Army doing?  WW2 German infantry squad was built around their Mg34 or 42.  It provided a base of fire and then they would just fight it out with that mg as the center pin or other elements of the squad or platoon might try and maneuver in on the enemy.  That is a wrinkle to this IMO.  How did the Red Army of ww2 do it?  It would be stupid in a historical game to have everyone acting like Western Nato powers if they where doing something different.   Tongue Roll Eyes
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andrey12345
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« Reply #404 on: April 03, 2014, 09:56:10 AM »

And at anytime as the situation develops you might change what your doing.  Go from defending what you have to trying to assault through.  To falling back to holding. 

In real game the situation will be much worse because visibility checks performs on unit basis:
"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

At the outlet will turn the crowd scattered units that go somewhere, either spontaneously scattered across the countryside.  Moreover, after this even organize them back into one group will not be easy, especially under fire.

This "feature" is probably the worst proposal I've heard for the last half of the year Smiley
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« Reply #405 on: April 03, 2014, 10:03:02 AM »

And at anytime as the situation develops you might change what your doing.  Go from defending what you have to trying to assault through.  To falling back to holding. 

In real game the situation will be much worse because visibility checks performs on unit basis:
"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

At the outlet will turn the crowd scattered units that go somewhere, either spontaneously scattered across the countryside.  Moreover, after this even organize them back into one group will not be easy, especially under fire.

This "feature" is probably the worst proposal I've heard for the last half of the year Smiley


Right.... Because the AI might spot the enemy at 2km which in this case would result in the ai doing something stupid.  In pure real world, the leaders on the ground would know better than to run away or charge forward.  In a game we can not expect the same actions from the ai.  Probably should be limited to > 500 meters or less.  But in average GTOS battle its rare to spot at 1 km or more.  Sunny days only really.  I think contact should have to mean within small arms range or actively shooting each other for game.   

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andrey12345
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« Reply #406 on: April 03, 2014, 10:03:18 AM »

How did the Red Army of ww2 do it? 

Doing the same thing, but mostly not around MGs, but around a tank  Grin.

Sometimes used slightly different tactics. Example is the division that defended in Taranovka, instead dances around MGs used large number (approximately company) of highly trained snipers, who created the desired density of fire due to marksmanship. Or used a whole SMGs squads.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 10:06:36 AM by andrey12345 » Logged

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« Reply #407 on: April 03, 2014, 10:08:50 AM »

How did the Red Army of ww2 do it? 

Doing the same thing, but mostly not around MGs, but around a tank  Grin.

Sometimes used slightly different tactics. Example is the division that defended in Taranovka, instead dances around MGs used large number (approximately company) of highly trained snipers, who created the desired density of fire due to marksmanship.

Hell yes... tank is better than an MG.   Tongue

Well the US did it a bit different too.  Instead of 1 belt fed MG you had 2 BAR's with a weapon section with actual MG's.  But the basics are pretty universal cause they simply work I guess.

Actually the US and USSR in this period had alot of the same ideas about infantry squads and weapons now that I think about it.  To bad the SVT 40's where not in bigger numbers.  But the SMG guys of the Red Army.. ya that was something else.  Tons of short range firepower.  No one did that but Red Army.  It certainly worked when ranges where under 200 meters.   Wink
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 10:12:25 AM by Flashburn » Logged

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« Reply #408 on: April 03, 2014, 10:23:44 AM »

IF a workable way to do an LOS and number check within a set range can be made, with the ai able to choose a few different general (attack, defend, fall back) on the fly would be a bonus to Mius I think.  The AI is good in GTOS.  But getting it a bit more "human", even making "human" errors would be an over all improvement.  I know not the easiest thing.  But would add so much.  Even if the AI got it wrong 1/3 of the time.  Humans do this too.  But from this I would have to say advance to contact HAS to be based on average infantry engagement ranges.  Its the basic unit for fighting and with realities of game with the fact that ranges can be 2km easy it would NOT work with simple visual contact at range.  Maybe 2020? 
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Flanker15
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« Reply #409 on: April 03, 2014, 11:06:42 AM »

Axiom #1
"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

Simple example
Blues - alied units
Reds - enemies
Blue lines - move (advance)
Black lines - visibility probe
Green areas - forest

1

2

3

4

5


Do you really want this force fragmentation?
Do you really think that this is Advance to contact?


Good diagram of the problem that some games have with advance to contact.  I imagine the AI needs several "brains" at different levels to work properly. At the platoon level, at the company level and at the force level. 
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andrey12345
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« Reply #410 on: April 03, 2014, 11:06:45 AM »

Limit range is poor thing because enemies can have a long ranges than alieds. For example SMG squad advance to howitizer positions. If check range will be limited by hand guns range - soldiers killed and not stop.

Any unit visibility checks as "contact" is poor criteria at all - it not works at level more than 1 unit.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 11:09:32 AM by andrey12345 » Logged

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andrey12345
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« Reply #411 on: April 03, 2014, 11:08:50 AM »

Good diagram of the problem that some games have with advance to contact.  I imagine the AI needs several "brains" at different levels to work properly. At the platoon level, at the company level and at the force level. 

Now we talks about orders for the human player not AI.

AI ​​is not engaged in such foolishness  Grin
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« Reply #412 on: April 03, 2014, 11:49:26 AM »

Andrey, your diagrams don't represent the behaviour of well organized and trained military formation. I'm not an AI programmer, and don't know if AI recognizes belonging to such a formation.

If sent to scout, a formation (whether it's a squad, platoon or some ad hoc combat group) should retreat in an organized manner, not like a bunch of drunks engaged in a street fight when they hear police sirens.  Grin

If this is not achievable, scouting should be limited to a single squad.
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« Reply #413 on: April 03, 2014, 12:17:29 PM »

The diagram would be an improvement if AI on their own did it right.  But still based on a set rate of attrition of force?  If that is the basis for AI actions (which is fine), then retreating earlier would be nice if the objective is not vary valuable.  If its really important, like a 4 or 5 in the editor losing 70 or 80 percent of attacking force before the survivors run away.  A 3 like 50 percent attrition, 2 maybe 35, 1 20, 0 as low as 5 or 10 percent.  Is that even possible?  This just a basic concept not even factoring in moral level, fatigue, command level.  Those would need to get factored in of course. 

Since the vast majority flag objectives are 0 or 1, my hope would be the AI would not loose high numbers to unimportant things.  Something I do the AI quite often in GTOS. 
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Dane49
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« Reply #414 on: April 03, 2014, 12:33:30 PM »

Considering that I have no idea what goes into programing the AI, would it be possible with units given the movement to contact command to automatically have the units that come under enemy fire to take up the defense command and await further orders.

Also concerning the designated recon units(actual recon units), how about once they spot  the enemy all previous commands are cancelled and they assume the hide command and await further orders.

There is already an option in the game (default order 8.08) where you can set the units to either defend, move or attack once they have completed their initial command or lack of any commands given to the units. Maybe this can be modified for certain commands or units once a certain trigger is initiated.

Also maybe have units retreat sooner after a certain casualty % is reached.
It seems that a lot of times the units don't retreat until  they are almost wiped out and are completely useless for the rest of the battle.  I would like to see them fall back sooner before that stage of attrition ,low morale and broken status is reached.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 12:36:52 PM by Dane49 » Logged
andrey12345
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« Reply #415 on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:38 PM »

Andrey, your diagrams don't represent the behaviour of well organized and trained military formation. I'm not an AI programmer, and don't know if AI recognizes belonging to such a formation.

Wait, wait, but how about this post? http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11319.msg39018#msg39018
 Cheesy

So it turns out, "Advance to contact" it is order for not trained troops?  Grin
So this is what I always say - this order does not make sense.
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« Reply #416 on: April 03, 2014, 12:51:09 PM »

So your saying a player ONLY command of movement to contact..  Just bump into enemy and players soldiers go defensive and await orders.  Which might be all that is practical.  The other we are of same mind on.  


Well real world the call would come from highest leader of the unit that was in command.  But Andrey you said was dumbest idea in 6 months.   Tongue Grin
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 12:55:15 PM by Flashburn » Logged

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andrey12345
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« Reply #417 on: April 03, 2014, 12:52:56 PM »

Considering that I have no idea what goes into programing the AI,

Programming AI its a very simple, but... you can only program that makes sense  Grin
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Dane49
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« Reply #418 on: April 03, 2014, 01:11:15 PM »

Basically a reconnaissance in force or combat recon mission can be carried out by any combat unit it's not necessarily a function of actual scout or recon units.

The American army in Vietnam called these "Search and Destroy" missions.
Generally company and platoon sized units would beat the bush looking for the enemy and if they found them it would be determined by higher command whether to reinforce the engagement if available reaction forces were on hand or fall back to a more defensible position under the cover of air and artillery fire and await reinforcement or evacuate the units to a safer location.
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Flanker15
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« Reply #419 on: April 03, 2014, 01:16:05 PM »

Good diagram of the problem that some games have with advance to contact.  I imagine the AI needs several "brains" at different levels to work properly. At the platoon level, at the company level and at the force level. 

Now we talks about orders for the human player not AI.

AI ​​is not engaged in such foolishness  Grin

Well in that case it'd just be a job for micro management.   

For a move to contact order it could be a special order so that any units selected when order is given all stop when first contact from any unit.
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