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Author Topic: Any update on Mius front?  (Read 278962 times)
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Flashburn
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« Reply #420 on: April 03, 2014, 01:23:18 PM »

Basically a reconnaissance in force or combat recon mission can be carried out by any combat unit it's not necessarily a function of actual scout or recon units.

The American army in Vietnam called these "Search and Destroy" missions.
Generally company and platoon sized units would beat the bush looking for the enemy and if they found them it would be determined by higher command whether to reinforce the engagement if available reaction forces were on hand or fall back to a more defensible position under the cover of air and artillery fire and await reinforcement or evacuate the units to a safer location.

I do not think that is a good analogy.  Yes in that war they had combat guys running around looking for the VC.  Heaven help a small unit running into the NVA, since they where running around usually in battalion sized groups. 

It is true, any unit can conduct scout missions.  But scouts do it better.  Smaller foot print usually, that is lower number of people, but more fire power per soldier.  Less likely to be spotted but with enough fire power to extract themselves from a mess.  They do not have enough people to actually take and hold ground well.  Its not their job. 


But we seem to be talking about 3 things. 

Movement to contact....
Casualty rates and falling back without the unit worthless over nothing.
and scouts and how they are frankly ate up in GTOS.  They scout, but do it awful.  Says the former scout.   Roll Eyes

So what can be done?  how to make really freaking great game more freaking great? 
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Dane49
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« Reply #421 on: April 03, 2014, 02:57:59 PM »

Quote
It is true, any unit can conduct scout missions.  But scouts do it better.

Scouts are usually a platoon sized unit attached to a battalion or regimental command whose function was basically to observe and report.

While reconnaissance batttalions were generally combat units that performed movements to contact mainly on the flanks or well ahead of the main force to determine if the enemy was in the area and in what strength and were usually tasked with probing and defending the flanks over a greater area because of their increased mobility.

Maybe scout platoons could be added that use the hidden movement and generally try to avoid combat so that they can generally observe.
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lavish
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« Reply #422 on: April 03, 2014, 03:00:45 PM »

Seems like there's some discussion going on about "Advance to contact". Smiley

I think everyone agree that "enemy contact" is defined that unit has LOS to an enemy unit (game reports this as "enemy contact"). We can say that this condition is well established for one unit. However, as Andrey pointed out in his Figure (http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11319.msg39032#msg39032), this condition is not very practical when we're looking at bigger picture, i.e. actions of a battle group that consists of many units: Each unit in a battle group has a spesific LOS, because LOS is dependent on unit position, and thus at a certain moment some units may have "enemy contact" while others don't. If an unit has the hypothetical "advance to contact" modifier actived, each unit having "enemy contact" will stop separately from others and thus the battle group formation is broken, i.e. fragmented.

What can be done? The "advance to contact" modifier should not only modify behaviour of one unit, but also modify actions of the whole battle group of that unit as well. Like Flanker15 said:

For a move to contact order it could be a special order so that any units selected when order is given all stop when first contact from any unit.

So if an unit having "Advance to contact" modifier activated moves to "enemy contact", the whole battle group stops. By definition this would also allow the commander (player) to select, which units has the power to stop the whole battle group and which don't.

What is a battle group? I think a battle group in this game is defined as a group of units having the same order (given by the player at the same time). According to Mius Front news posts on Facebook, these battle groups are created when an order is given to a group of units. This group will be presented as an icon on the interface. When the group of units completes all its orders, the battle group is disbanded along with its icon.

Another thing to note is that by definition  "Advance to contact" would not just be "movement modifier", but more of an "order modifier", since it would make units (belonging to the same battle group) stop, cancel all of their orders and thus disband the whole battle group. To prevent battle group from disbanding, maybe the orders need not to be cancelled, but the battle group could just halt (aka pause) and wait for decision from commander (player): should they continue or should they have new orders.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:03:26 PM by lavish » Logged
Flashburn
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« Reply #423 on: April 03, 2014, 03:29:24 PM »

That is fine for the player.  And a useful command to add to the order panel.  But so far every order or modifier the player can do, the ai can do too.  In this case would be worthless to the ai.  Actually horrible for the ai. 

Right now when i generally have my guys bump into the enemy forces I order them to stop.  effectively using this command if it existed.  Also will start ordering my guys to go find a hole to jump into if its appropriate. So such a basic command would be nice, it automates what I am doing manually, we still have the same old ai.

I think having ai units retreat sooner as both Dane and myself have stated would be a good thing.  Alas my worst idea of the past 6 months of a move to contact and have the ai count enemy's to decide what to do seems to be a bad ai thing.  Grin 

But overall need to consider the over all game in a holistic way.

My personal order of priority (if I where like the Graviteam gods) would go something like this....

1.  Less suicidal ai units that attempt to preserve themselves in the attack where appropriate.
2.  Some sort of movement to contact command.  Either a simple player only command, or something closer to Andrey's diagrams.
3.  Better scouts! 


4.  On screen artillery (mortars and field guns) that can fire flares and smoke rounds.  Both ai and player to decide what is best.
5.  AAA guns for ground units  =) flak 30/38's and that cool 37mm of the red army.  Or even those crazy quad maxims.

OH and infantry throw-able smoke! 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:34:59 PM by Flashburn » Logged

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topnik
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« Reply #424 on: April 03, 2014, 04:50:20 PM »

Andrey, your diagrams don't represent the behaviour of well organized and trained military formation. I'm not an AI programmer, and don't know if AI recognizes belonging to such a formation.

Wait, wait, but how about this post? http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11319.msg39018#msg39018
 Cheesy

So it turns out, "Advance to contact" it is order for not trained troops?  Grin
Quite the opposite, it's an order for well organized and trained troops, who communicate with each other. Let's say you have a group of units in scout mission (although I prefer a single squad), as soon as one unit makes contact, the whole group acts in coordination (it seems that the general consensus here is that is should retreat - but in organized manner, not rout).

So this is what I always say - this order does not make sense.
I disagree  Grin
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Tanker
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« Reply #425 on: April 03, 2014, 05:10:43 PM »

And at anytime as the situation develops you might change what your doing.  Go from defending what you have to trying to assault through.  To falling back to holding. 

In real game the situation will be much worse because visibility checks performs on unit basis:
"If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact"

At the outlet will turn the crowd scattered units that go somewhere, either spontaneously scattered across the countryside.  Moreover, after this even organize them back into one group will not be easy, especially under fire.

This "feature" is probably the worst proposal I've heard for the last half of the year Smiley


Right.... Because the AI might spot the enemy at 2km which in this case would result in the ai doing something stupid.  In pure real world, the leaders on the ground would know better than to run away or charge forward.  In a game we can not expect the same actions from the ai.  Probably should be limited to > 500 meters or less.  But in average GTOS battle its rare to spot at 1 km or more.  Sunny days only really.  I think contact should have to mean within small arms range or actively shooting each other for game.   



That gets at the heart of my point about how reducing micro-management, while a worthwhile goal, does not always work very well for the game.

We may not expect the ai to be able to do it, but shouldn't we be able to accomplish it somehow?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 05:12:26 PM by Tanker » Logged

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andrey12345
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« Reply #426 on: April 03, 2014, 06:45:45 PM »

So if an unit having "Advance to contact" modifier activated moves to "enemy contact", the whole battle group stops.
This case even worstest than fragmentation Smiley
Its look like as bug with movement.

Ok, wait for Mius with good implementation of similar thing that expanded on all size formations with any set of units. Call it "Advance without contact"  Grin.

I hope everyone understood that contact is something much more complex than "If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" Smiley
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:15:43 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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wodin
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« Reply #427 on: April 03, 2014, 09:32:24 PM »

Tanker I agree..the less micro management a game strives for the better it's Tac AI has to be.
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topnik
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« Reply #428 on: April 03, 2014, 09:39:57 PM »

Ok, wait for Mius with good implementation of similar thing that expanded on all size formations with any set of units. Call it "Advance without contact"  Grin.
Looking forward to it. BTW, any info on release date?  Grin

I hope everyone understood that contact is something much more complex than "If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" Smiley
What about on squad level? Even though it's the smallest controllable unit, it does get scattered. And once a single soldier sees the enemy, the whole unit is aware there's a contact. At least that is my understanding of how it works. Can something similar be implemented on a larger scale, i.e. the whole battle group?


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lavish
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« Reply #429 on: April 04, 2014, 04:22:43 PM »

So if an unit having "Advance to contact" modifier activated moves to "enemy contact", the whole battle group stops.
This case even worstest than fragmentation Smiley
Its look like as bug with movement.
I wouldn't say that it's the worst - but definately far from ideal!  Grin

I hope everyone understood that contact is something much more complex than "If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" Smiley
If we are splitting hairs here, "contact" is a visual confirmation of any enemy unit. But for gaming purpose, as described earlier, this definition does not give ideal effect.  Smiley

Ok, wait for Mius with good implementation of similar thing that expanded on all size formations with any set of units. Call it "Advance without contact"  Grin.
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Flashburn
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« Reply #430 on: April 04, 2014, 05:33:20 PM »

So if an unit having "Advance to contact" modifier activated moves to "enemy contact", the whole battle group stops.
This case even worstest than fragmentation Smiley
Its look like as bug with movement.

Ok, wait for Mius with good implementation of similar thing that expanded on all size formations with any set of units. Call it "Advance without contact"  Grin.

I hope everyone understood that contact is something much more complex than "If any our unit see any enemy unit in any distance in any conditions this is contact" Smiley

Well the idea real world is of course to not necessarily STOP, more of a pause and figure out what to do.  It could be really quite fast. 

But modifiers to advance to enemy and retreat if i am following correctly, would be useful.  As would simply advance and defend.  If that makes sense. 

If only a way the ai could..


Advance....assess..then..attack
                                   retreat
                                   defend. 

SO I am beating a dead horse.   Wink
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wodin
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« Reply #431 on: April 04, 2014, 06:17:29 PM »

One thing that could be done is bring in SOP's that you set for a unit.
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Tanker
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« Reply #432 on: April 04, 2014, 07:52:11 PM »


If only a way the ai could..


Advance....assess..then..attack
                                   retreat
                                   defend. 

SO I am beating a dead horse.   Wink


NEVER stop whipping Flash.  Sometimes even a dead horse can come to life around here.
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Tanker
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« Reply #433 on: April 04, 2014, 07:53:17 PM »

One thing that could be done is bring in SOP's that you set for a unit.

Yes, I've seen that done on games and it works quite well.
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Flashburn
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« Reply #434 on: April 05, 2014, 07:18:38 AM »

Just throwing something out there...

A normal mod with the least amount of interface confusion possible for newer players.  And an Advance mod with more nit picking options.  Andrey will hate that idea.   Grin
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andrey12345
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« Reply #435 on: April 12, 2014, 12:59:01 PM »

New vid, part 1
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #436 on: April 12, 2014, 01:11:27 PM »

Scouting under fire seems strange.  Undecided
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andrey12345
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« Reply #437 on: April 12, 2014, 01:14:17 PM »

Scouting under fire seems strange.  Undecided
Of course NO Smiley

See in next series (in 3rd) Smiley
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andrey12345
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« Reply #438 on: April 12, 2014, 02:19:22 PM »

New features (part2A)


« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 02:21:28 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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Dane49
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« Reply #439 on: April 12, 2014, 02:56:04 PM »

New features (part2A)




Are those smoke grenades in this video and who is throwing them.
The Germans or the Soviet tank crew?
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