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Author Topic: Any update on Mius front?  (Read 287253 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #520 on: June 13, 2014, 02:28:27 PM »

I'm still bitching at the noobs on my teams in World of Tanks to stop doing this, LOL.  Grin

This is a real problem if the AI ​​for it in principle can be solved, but now just do not have enough CPU power to the exact solution is, if you need a lot of units simultaneously. But for the average human - no. This is one of many reasons why i think MP in complex games dont have any prospects. Ie or there will be a natural selection and few players, or will be many stupid things. AI in this sense, is much more promising.
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« Reply #521 on: June 13, 2014, 05:29:40 PM »


Yes. In Mius become even worse, as the AI ​​will use the sights almost like people in general purpose and can not see enemies. As a result, will not turn anywhere at all. As is in real life

Well as long as they don't drive around pointing their sides and back at threats they can see or drive out of entrenchments or retreat from a threat by turning around instead of using reverse it'll be good.


Would not expect it, seriously.
Just you look from the perspective of the player, who sees everything as a whole,but from the perspective of a particular AI unit all see others. And do you think that it turns his back to the enemy, and the enemy AI seems that no enemies, it can quickly turn around and leave.
In Mius will be even worse, since the viewing area even closer to reality, especially for vehicles.
Of course it should be expected.  That's the problem with programming ai.  AI has no "sense" of the battlefield, no soldier's intuition.  It is just reacting to deterministic algorithms

So you don't think soldiers in a unit don't know the enemy is "over there somewhere"?  Tank crews know that the threat is in "that direction".  They are not going to turn their rear in that direction.  They are not going to inexplicably leave a hull down position.  The ai still turns rear to enemy even in the presence of incoming fire.  Is that close to reality?  It doesn't matter if the enemy hasn't been seen for a period of time, real soldiers and tankers are not going to react like the ai often does in the game. 

You've said it yourself.  The cpu power is not available to have the ai work like reality in all cases.
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« Reply #522 on: June 13, 2014, 05:31:35 PM »

I suspect we won't see Mius front before the last quarter of 2014.

Thanks Dane -- I'd gladly settle for a Q4 2014 release.  My fear is this drags well into 2015.
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« Reply #523 on: June 13, 2014, 05:33:11 PM »

Quote
Well as long as they don't drive around pointing their sides and back at threats they can see or drive out of entrenchments or retreat from a threat by turning around instead of using reverse it'll be good.

I'm still bitching at the noobs on my teams in World of Tanks to stop doing this, LOL.  Grin

Yes, the noobs do it but by this time in the war as depicted in the graviteam games there should be very few noob tank commanders left.  Yet we still have the ai commanders acting like unaware noobs.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #524 on: June 13, 2014, 07:17:50 PM »

Of course it should be expected.  That's the problem with programming ai. 
Its not a problem of program AI, its more like optimisation problem.
We can do more or less extact AI in this aspect (recognition and flogged of enemy _continuously_), but extact is to slow for more than 10-30 units on each side and has quadratic growth with increasing number of units. As result we can make tricky fast approximations this lead to some problems in recognition.

AI has no "sense" of the battlefield, no soldier's intuition.  It is just reacting to deterministic algorithms
In this aspect not right.
Theoretically the same thing as human, even better due to strong memorization. But slow.


So you don't think soldiers in a unit don't know the enemy is "over there somewhere"?  Tank crews know that the threat is in "that direction".  They are not going to turn their rear in that direction. 
All this problems (with regards to the enemy's position density) solved due to cluster analisys, but slow Smiley
This is not extact as human but in most aspects is very close.

They are not going to inexplicably leave a hull down position.  The ai still turns rear to enemy even in the presence of incoming fire. 
And humans too.
This problem dont has an ideal solution.
Just a little better or a little worse. In some cases better to turn and fast move, at other better to reverse.
Incoming fire even more strange thing  Grin

Is that close to reality?  It doesn't matter if the enemy hasn't been seen for a period of time, real soldiers and tankers are not going to react like the ai often does in the game. 
What do you mean on term "react"?

You've said it yourself.  The cpu power is not available to have the ai work like reality in all cases.
You do not correctly interpret the fact that I write.  Grin

Does not allow to do some things, if a lot of units.
But if do not try to do this, there will be no progress whatsoever in this area.

On the other hand with the human players, in general nothing can be done at all. Only cull quite goofy  Grin. But given the small popularity of the genre it does MP quite meaningless.
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« Reply #525 on: June 13, 2014, 08:21:00 PM »

To react is to respond to stimuli or the lack of stimuli in this case.

I think Battlefront is making a business out of providing an MP (more than one player) experience.  Note, I'm not comparing anything other than that both games are in the same genre and one provides SP and MP while the other does only one.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #526 on: June 13, 2014, 09:38:16 PM »

To react is to respond to stimuli or the lack of stimuli in this case.
I do not mean it. I mean what do you have to do during in this "react" units in a hypothetical game with great AI?
As specifically your should look like. It is possible for example, if a particular generally difficult to explain.

I think Battlefront is making a business out of providing an MP (more than one player) experience.  Note, I'm not comparing anything other than that both games are in the same genre and one provides SP and MP while the other does only one.
They have their own niche we have own. MP strongly secondary opportunity.
I would not say that just yet BF is example of making business on the MP.
Making business on MP is WOT or WarThunder or DOTA, not BF, sorry.

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« Reply #527 on: June 14, 2014, 12:27:04 AM »



Would not expect it, seriously.
Just you look from the perspective of the player, who sees everything as a whole,but from the perspective of a particular AI unit all see others. And do you think that it turns his back to the enemy, and the enemy AI seems that no enemies, it can quickly turn around and leave.
In Mius will be even worse, since the viewing area even closer to reality, especially for vehicles.

I'm talking about when they turn their back/side to enemies that they can 100% see or could see moments ago because they want to move a few feet to the side or something dumb instead prioritising facing the threat and staying put, turning in front of enemies they don't know about is all good.

Also that thing where they leave their entrenchments in order to turn the hull to face at a side threat even though the entrenchment already protects the hull is soo annoying, even the dumbest human tank crew wouldn't do it.

Also will mius AI be able to do that tank reposition "V" manoeuvre where the tank reverses away from the threat, turns a little bit, then drives forward to the new position?   It's good for keeping the front armor pointed at the threat instead of turning and driving in a strait line.
Also I've always wondered if the AI knows to angle its hull a bit for tanks like the Tiger1?
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« Reply #528 on: June 14, 2014, 04:58:48 AM »



Would not expect it, seriously.
Just you look from the perspective of the player, who sees everything as a whole,but from the perspective of a particular AI unit all see others. And do you think that it turns his back to the enemy, and the enemy AI seems that no enemies, it can quickly turn around and leave.
In Mius will be even worse, since the viewing area even closer to reality, especially for vehicles.

I'm talking about when they turn their back/side to enemies that they can 100% see or could see moments ago because they want to move a few feet to the side or something dumb instead prioritising facing the threat and staying put, turning in front of enemies they don't know about is all good.

Also that thing where they leave their entrenchments in order to turn the hull to face at a side threat even though the entrenchment already protects the hull is soo annoying, even the dumbest human tank crew wouldn't do it.

Also will mius AI be able to do that tank reposition "V" manoeuvre where the tank reverses away from the threat, turns a little bit, then drives forward to the new position?   It's good for keeping the front armor pointed at the threat instead of turning and driving in a strait line.
Also I've always wondered if the AI knows to angle its hull a bit for tanks like the Tiger1?

You said what I wanted to say and did it much better.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #529 on: June 14, 2014, 06:37:21 PM »

I'm talking about when they turn their back/side to enemies that they can 100% see

But how do you define this?  Huh?
In game no any means to do this (100% checks for tank crew member recognize or not recognize enemy at moment of time).

or could see moments ago because they want to move a few feet to the side or something dumb instead prioritising facing the threat and staying put, turning in front of enemies they don't know about is all good.
This should be considered in each case. In global this dont have any sence. Because to such behavior affects many factors, most of which can not control directly from user (in Mius is a little more control, yes). And well, of course we can not exclude bugs Smiley.

Also that thing where they leave their entrenchments in order to turn the hull to face at a side threat even though the entrenchment already protects the hull is soo annoying, even the dumbest human tank crew wouldn't do it.
It always works well for very simple and straightforward rules. If you dont want to bypass entrenchments when enemies at their side - setup the trench sector in 1 click.

Also will mius AI be able to do that tank reposition "V" manoeuvre where the tank reverses away from the threat, turns a little bit, then drives forward to the new position?   It's good for keeping the front armor pointed at the threat instead of turning and driving in a strait line.
Of course no. Other strange things it will not to do too.
Just think how to do this "order" to the AI through the user interface? If it goes more than 2 clicks - this will not present.

Also I've always wondered if the AI knows to angle its hull a bit for tanks like the Tiger1?
Do not quite understand the question.
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« Reply #530 on: June 14, 2014, 07:37:04 PM »

In global this dont have any sence.
That's a problem.
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« Reply #531 on: June 14, 2014, 11:23:39 PM »


But how do you define this?  Huh?
In game no any means to do this (100% checks for tank crew member recognize or not recognize enemy at moment of time).

Does the game have a "heat" system for this?  So unit sees an enemy and that position on map gets "hot" for that unit, more enemies and enemies that are dangerous to this type of unit make the area "hotter".    "Hot" areas that have no contacts in it will "cool" over time. 
So even without 100% real time knowledge of enemy positions and concentration, units can still "know" that there is heavy activity at a particular position and less in another so priorities armor facing towards the heavier one.

It always works well for very simple and straightforward rules. If you dont want to bypass entrenchments when enemies at their side - setup the trench sector in 1 click.

I mean after the battle has commenced, tank sitting in entrenchment will see an enemy threat to the side and instead of turning turret to shoot at it will drive out of the entrenchment and turn entire tank to face it, then side is vulnerable to enemy at the front.   
Sometimes make sense for vehicle with no turret but tanks have no reasons to leave entrenchment other than retreat from close enemy.

Of course no. Other strange things it will not to do too.
Just think how to do this "order" to the AI through the user interface? If it goes more than 2 clicks - this will not present.

I mean the enemy tacai knowing how to order it.
Example:  AI tank fighting tanks to the north, Tacai wants to order  AI tank to move 30m to the east, Tacai orders the the tank south in reverse then move to new posistion instead of simply ordering move to new position.

Do not quite understand the question.

The Tiger1's armor is thickest when pointed at around 30 degrees to the target so it's better to have your hull angled a bit instead of pointing straight at a threat.
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« Reply #532 on: June 15, 2014, 09:17:47 AM »

Is II SS Panzer Corps going to make an appearance in the new Mius game...?   Wink
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andrey12345
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« Reply #533 on: June 15, 2014, 11:00:16 AM »

Does the game have a "heat" system for this? 
Game have many features to check some visibility aspects. But no one that would give integrally answer to this question. "Heat" system is one from this features. Answers the question - what enemies _potentially_ seen / know about them to _whole_ unit. In some moments this will be match to actual state, in some will not.


So unit sees an enemy and that position on map gets "hot" for that unit, more enemies and enemies that are dangerous to this type of unit make the area "hotter".    "Hot" areas that have no contacts in it will "cool" over time. 
So even without 100% real time knowledge of enemy positions and concentration, units can still "know" that there is heavy activity at a particular position and less in another so priorities armor facing towards the heavier one.
Simplest example. Two enemies, one at 12 hours, one at 6 - where to turn front?
In your specific example, it is necessary to calculate a lot. These hotspots need to be calculated for each unit for every enemy (in worst case), and the sense of this is near zero. Sorry, but such kind of "obvious algorithms" never work at practice.

I mean after the battle has commenced, tank sitting in entrenchment will see an enemy threat to the side and instead of turning turret to shoot at it will drive out of the entrenchment and turn entire tank to face it, then side is vulnerable to enemy at the front.   
Sometimes make sense for vehicle with no turret but tanks have no reasons to leave entrenchment other than retreat from close enemy.
Tanks do not shoot through the ground (parapet of the trench), even if there turns turret. Have to leave the trench.

I mean the enemy tacai knowing how to order it.
Example:  AI tank fighting tanks to the north, Tacai wants to order  AI tank to move 30m to the east, Tacai orders the the tank south in reverse then move to new posistion instead of simply ordering move to new position.
Please picture Smiley
And I'll tell you why it will not work in most cases   Cheesy


The Tiger1's armor is thickest when pointed at around 30 degrees to the target so it's better to have your hull angled a bit instead of pointing straight at a threat.

I think you have in mind work with tactical diagrams. Yes game write actual TD in real-time for each vehicle. I am show this feature few month ago.
Maybe AI will take them to account a little more often.




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« Reply #534 on: June 15, 2014, 11:01:16 AM »

In global this dont have any sence.
That's a problem.
It is an objective reality given to us. Not a problem.
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« Reply #535 on: June 15, 2014, 11:43:38 AM »


Please picture Smiley
And I'll tell you why it will not work in most cases   Cheesy


Sorry about my bad drawing, there's a better pic somewhere in the training manuals.

The tank on the left wants to go to the position on the right.
Red arrow is reverse, blue is forward and yellow is if a direct move order was given which would open the side armor to fire.

The pic isn't to any scale.


Quote
Tanks do not shoot through the ground (parapet of the trench), even if there turns turret. Have to leave the trench.

Of that sort of makes sense but is there a way to make them stay in the trench because this tank needs focus on the tanks approaching from the front which will kill him the moment he leaves the trench. 


Also I didn't know the AI was going to use those TDs I thought they were just a player guide but the ai using them is cool.  Smiley
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« Reply #536 on: June 16, 2014, 07:42:20 PM »

Even if we ignore the fact that hard to move back (especially maneuvering) on far distance on a vehicle without mirrors and with bad view to sideways. It is non-generic method, since in most cases in the back (where the red line) will be an obstacle. And the tank stuck somewhere on it.
And moving will take much more time (much longer and the tank will be under fire). Ie organized attack will be difficult, probability of hitting the tank will be higher.
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« Reply #537 on: June 16, 2014, 07:48:53 PM »

Of that sort of makes sense but is there a way to make them stay in the trench because this tank needs focus on the tanks approaching from the front which will kill him the moment he leaves the trench. 
As I write before - setup trench sector. If I have not forgotten anything, right-click on the sector button when it is not set on all selected units. This is not a 100% guarantee (like any other feature in the game  Grin), but increases the chance of the fact that no one is not going anywhere.

Also I didn't know the AI was going to use those TDs I thought they were just a player guide but the ai using them is cool.  Smiley

AI now uses them (not quite as in your drawing, of course  Cheesy) and in fact they are built almost the same data as the AI builds for himself, and now (in Mius) they will be drawn and for the player too.
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« Reply #538 on: June 17, 2014, 05:04:14 AM »

Even if we ignore the fact that hard to move back (especially maneuvering) on far distance on a vehicle without mirrors and with bad view to sideways. It is non-generic method, since in most cases in the back (where the blue line) will be an obstacle. And the tank stuck somewhere on it.
And moving will take much more time (much longer and the tank will be under fire). Ie organized attack will be difficult, probability of hitting the tank will be higher.


Come on Andrey.  If a tank is in danger of getting hit by superior fire you can be sure it will back up.  As far as seeing, that's why the tank commander risks sticking his head out of the hatch.  I can see if you simulate it getting stuck if the tank commander is dead but otherwise he should be able to direct the driver.  It's often not a question of moving more than a few dozen meters to get under cover or out of the line of fire.  The way the tanks move in game is maddening sometimes and often silly the way they expose the sides and rear.
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« Reply #539 on: June 17, 2014, 06:33:16 AM »

Even if we ignore the fact that hard to move back (especially maneuvering) on far distance on a vehicle without mirrors and with bad view to sideways. It is non-generic method, since in most cases in the back (where the blue line) will be an obstacle. And the tank stuck somewhere on it.
And moving will take much more time (much longer and the tank will be under fire). Ie organized attack will be difficult, probability of hitting the tank will be higher.


Come on Andrey.  If a tank is in danger of getting hit by superior fire you can be sure it will back up.  As far as seeing, that's why the tank commander risks sticking his head out of the hatch.  I can see if you simulate it getting stuck if the tank commander is dead but otherwise he should be able to direct the driver.  It's often not a question of moving more than a few dozen meters to get under cover or out of the line of fire.  The way the tanks move in game is maddening sometimes and often silly the way they expose the sides and rear.

If "commander risks sticking his head out of the hatch" - no big sence to stretch the time that the tank is under fire as proposed on this algo. The sence of such algo if there is a way to cover a very short, and / or all crew sit on the armor (but then it is not clear how the driver will maneuver).

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