Graviteam
May 24, 2019, 05:47:25 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7
  Print  
Author Topic: Which way do you prefer to play multiplayer games?  (Read 49467 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2014, 07:47:53 PM »

Go on the forum.  Post that you wish to play a game.  State your preferences.  Some other person who also wishes a game then posts, accepting your invitation.  You arrange a time to meet for a real time ip game or send the first move of a pbem game.

But you says that not need active on forum, at now "Go on the forum"?  How to understand it? Grin

If ip game, set up the game, give your ip to your opponent, he connects with it, the game begins.  Both CM and Command Ops have very fine mechanisms for setting up an ip game. 

I have gray dynamic IP at home computer, that changed by providers NAT every 5-30 minutes. What to do? Update messages on forum every 10th minutes?
Fine mechanisms, really?  Grin

It's really not rocket science Andrey. 
But why in wargames not present favorite list or lobby servers and you need to found opponents in archaic way through forums and IP4?
"Not rocket science" really?  Grin


P.S. All this sounds as at the level of the Stone Age in IT. Sorry. I would very much not like to play in our MP was just as bad. Although a high probability this will happen of course its sad Sad
Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2014, 07:53:32 PM »

Guys,
Whilst i understand what you are saying, i personally have no issue with 1v1.
It is how it how it would be implemented to the satisfaction of all that worries me.
I dont know how large Graviteam is, but my concern is that by using the time and resourses available to add MP to the game it would but back the release date for MIUS,
possibly by many months.
And although this thread has been viewed over 1000 times, there are only 15 different people that have posted. (Plus Andrey!)
In fact only 118 on Facebook, Its not a massive audience.
I can see what the original topic was, but this seems to have wandered slightly off track.
Would the effort not be better directed to finishing MIUS first, then worry about MP?
Still four mans. MP (not MMO of course) still in the plans, after the basic functionality.
While we wondering how it will theoretically look. What now is in wargames in this aspect strongly not like  Cheesy

I think first it will be - predefined missions through IP4 (for uncompromising wargamers  Grin) and somthing like simple lobby+fav list for others.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:02:17 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Schuck
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 166


« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2014, 07:55:27 PM »

Tanker,
Im sure he will anyway!
It just seems MP is alot of effort for very little return, On a game that has a very small market.
I think the original post on Facebook, was just dipping a toe in the water to test the temperature, not anything set in stone.
Logged
Schuck
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 166


« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2014, 07:58:54 PM »

Andrey,
Seriously, only four people?
Thats impressive!

Well that answers that then, "its in the plans" Wink
Logged
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2014, 08:05:45 PM »

Seriously, only four people?
Fortunately we give a help from modders and fans.
Especially in QA, models, docs from archives, community etc.
Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Tanker
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1099

BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2014, 08:07:32 PM »

Go on the forum.  Post that you wish to play a game.  State your preferences.  Some other person who also wishes a game then posts, accepting your invitation.  You arrange a time to meet for a real time ip game or send the first move of a pbem game.

But you says that not need active on forum, at now "Go on the forum"?  How to understand it? Grin

It's obvious.  You don't have to be on the forum to actually play the game.  Only for a few seconds to post.  Therefore you can't use the number of participants on line at any particular time (as you did) to get a measure of how many games are being played or how many participants are available.  That's not hard to understand is it?  But I suspect you knew that already. Wink

If ip game, set up the game, give your ip to your opponent, he connects with it, the game begins.  Both CM and Command Ops have very fine mechanisms for setting up an ip game. 

I have gray dynamic IP at home computer, that changed by providers NAT every 5-30 minutes. What to do? Update messages on forum every 10th minutes?
Fine mechanisms, really?  Grin

It's worked for me for dozens of games, I guess it would not work for you.

It's really not rocket science Andrey. 
But why in wargames not present favorite list or lobby servers and you need to found opponents in archaic way through forums and IP4?
"Not rocket science" really?  Grin

Because I only need to accommodate 1 friend at a time.  I don't need to search for dozens at a time.


P.S. All this sounds as at the level of the Stone Age in IT. Sorry. I would very much not like to play in our MP was just as bad. Although a high probability this will happen of course its sad Sad

Just because something is newer does not necessarily mean it is better.  If I wish to play a game against one person and that person is Missouri Rebel, then ip connection is perfect and a lobby with a search and match making routine is overkill.  We've said time and time again that GT games are different from WOT and GT games do not require the same type of lobby, and match making system that WOT does.
Logged

Bring back 3D markers!
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2014, 08:26:16 PM »

Just because something is newer does not necessarily mean it is better.  If I wish to play a game against one person and that person is Missouri Rebel, then ip connection is perfect
But we expected that will play in the game not only you. Do you think Missouri Rebel can play simultaneously with everyone?  Grin

Here again, you see only from their own perspective.

Let's imagine that you have a regular player and GTMF bought on sale, and you not have a friend with whom you can play now.
You (regular player) click in menu MP mode, and in this moment game will prompt you to enter a 4 strange obscure numbers...
Thats all - game fails from this players perspective. Such an implementation can not be called fine, but not even satisfactory - it is a glitch.
We try not add glitches to the game. Turns out badly, but we are working hard.

Now I write a fine way - as it should be:
1) Click in menu MP mode
2) You select conditions: time/side/other rules or restrictions
3) You have 2 filtered by conditions not empty lists: favorites and ready to play
4) You select opponent from any list
5) You play at any time at any date at any conditions

Forums/IP/waitings/meetings/mailings/repeat more times each - is worst way


and a lobby with a search and match making routine is overkill.  We've said time and time again that GT games are different from WOT and GT games do not require the same type of lobby, and match making system that WOT does.
Lobby style and here it is in WOT is two different things, not necessarily automatically select players, it can be done manually.
Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Tanker
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1099

BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2014, 12:33:21 AM »

Seems nice the way you are explaining it. Smiley

But if Missouri Reb and I wished to play, we'd still have to arrange to be in the opponent list at the same time correct?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 01:49:49 AM by Tanker » Logged

Bring back 3D markers!
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2014, 12:49:11 PM »

But if Missouri Reb and I wished to play, we'd still have to arrange to be in the opponent list at the same time correct?

Yes, but game directly shows ready or not (w/o forums or mailings) and trying to offer an alternate opponents.

P.S. One should not interpret this as we will soon in the our game  Cheesy, it's an example of how I believe it should look like a fine implementation.
Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Dane49
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1479


« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2014, 02:55:20 PM »

That's what I thought.

No MP planned for the near future.
This whole thread has basically been an exercise in futility. Angry
Logged
Tanker
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1099

BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2014, 05:35:22 PM »

Dane, we learned one thing.  Debating with Ukranian devs is like a knife fight in a dark phone booth, in a fog bank.  It's mass confusion and misdirection until you find your way out of the booth and you don't know why you ever went in.
Logged

Bring back 3D markers!
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2014, 06:22:21 PM »

No MP planned for the near future.
Shocked
And GTMF not planned for near future too.
How to MP mode will appear w/o the game?
Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2014, 06:41:27 PM »

In the meantime we always have...............

Cheesy

Cheers

Aces
Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
Mucka
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 14


« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2014, 02:21:05 AM »

Well this thread was a weird and wonderful introduction to the forum, the game and the dev.

First off I would just like to compliment Andrey on the amazing job he and his team have done with this game and it is a relief to get away from the excessive micromanagement of other wargames.
That said I have been really surprised at some of Andrey's comments re multiplayer and AI.

I purchased the game because it was on offer, I wasn't sure if I would like it and the lack of multiplayer were definitely negatives that prevented me from paying full price previously. Well I needn't of worried too much because the lack of multiplayer has obviously meant the devs have concentrated all resources on the single player experience and where AI often lets many games down it is sufficient here not to have a negative impact on the game.
That said I would still love a multplayer option because despite what Andrey states, there is simply no substitution for playing against another human player.
Andrey you don't seem to understand human nature very well at all which can be summed up perfectly by your premise that multiplayer will be obsolete once AI is smart enough to always beat the player - talk about missing the point?
That would make multiplayer imperative because nobody wants to play a game they cannot win and that being the case the devs would have to introduce human flaws into the AI logic - kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?
It is all about human interaction, AI does not have emotions, AI does not have psychology, AI doesn't care if it wins or loses and frankly I don't much care if I win or lose against AI - there is not the same motivation, it isn't human, do you see?
Why not just have AI v AI battles and leave out humans altogether? Ah, I guess that would cut into the sales base somewhat?
Seriously though, there is one financial part of the equation you neglected to look at re multiplayer - you can not play someone else (ie friends) who do not also have a copy of the game - caching! (Surely you must wonder at night why all these devs go tot he trouble to make their games such TW so multiplayer friendly when, as you insist, multiplayer is sniffed at by the war gaming community?)

Why do people play coop mode on multiplayer against AI rather than on their own? Because they are playing with another human which makes it more fun.
Yes Andrey, "fun", it is not a dirty word and games, for this is a game, are supposed to be fun. (sure, the realism and the simulation elements add to the immersion and the fun but if they detracted from it nobody would buy your game)
We like that our human opponents surprise us, are not flawless, that they panic, get angry, make mistakes or even when they make us do all those things because of their superior strategy/tactics/gameplay we still enjoy it more because we have revenge to look forward to (a rematch in a fun competitive way).
Besting AI is still an empty experience and it is the suspension of disbelief that one is playing a computer that makes it any fun at all - not the other way around!
Now it may be that financially or as far as resources go MP is not considered a priority, okay I get it, but dismissing multiplayer on a whim would surely be a mistake as well?
Certainly it is your game and I am just another opinion but I can imagine so many ways this game would be amazing in MP.

PS
One way to allow for any necessary micromanagement would be to give the option of a limited number of timeouts to each player/team of say 30/60 seconds. Of course the other side would have the same pause to assess battle conditions and reassess tactics/strategy. Naturally, as with all these things, the more flexibility you can build in the better as players can customise games to suit but I understand you do not want to make several games instead of just one and resources are limited.

Oh, Hi all!

PPS

Andrey all your pro AI list was perfectly valid but nobody is suggesting there should not be the option to have human V AI battles as well.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 02:28:25 AM by Mucka » Logged
Aces
Generalleutnant
**
Posts: 583



WWW
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2014, 10:11:53 AM »

Hi and welcome to the game and the forum.

IMHO you make several good points, it is a "GAME" (a very good one at that) and it has to be "FUN" if it wasn't then it would be a masochistic pastime wouldn't it Smiley. Also I agree when you mention that nobody here is proposing that AI vs Human should be scrapped in favour of Human vs Human but rather why is it not possible to have BOTH styles of gameplay?!.

Have FUN,

Kind regards

Aces
Logged


"IL-2 MAT Manager" co-dev.,Silent Hunter III "Super Turms","Super Pens","Crew on Deck" ,Multi-Skin Bombers dev. Wings of Victory v2.10.
Gamefront: http://tinyurl.com/bpbaeyl
Mediafire: http://tinyurl.com/bn2aoqt
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 5591


Jerk developer


« Reply #115 on: February 26, 2014, 12:57:44 PM »

That said I have been really surprised at some of Andrey's comments re multiplayer and AI.
Again! Oh no Smiley

Andrey you don't seem to understand human nature very well at all which can be summed up perfectly by your premise that multiplayer will be obsolete once AI is smart enough to always beat the player - talk about missing the point?

Exactly, when AI is smart enough, you just can not distinguish it from a human (in the game through game interface of course). Yes, it will not be soon.

It is all about human interaction, AI does not have emotions, AI does not have psychology, AI doesn't care if it wins or loses and frankly I don't much care if I win or lose against AI - there is not the same motivation, it isn't human, do you see?

You look on the wrong side completely. No need to compare a hypothetical AI and some abstract human themselves. Be compared through the game interface. But all through the game interface is what you wrote and then allegedly do not the AI,​can be implemented for AI.

Thus we have all the advantages of game with AI (which will never be in the game with a human), I already listed them many times, and added advantages of the gameplay with a human. In any case, future prospects for AI only. MP mode is a temporary. Sorry its real state of things.

Why not just have AI v AI battles and leave out humans altogether?
If one of these AI will fund the development we'll make this mode too Smiley


We like that our human opponents surprise us, are not flawless, that they panic, get angry, make mistakes or even when they make us do all those things because of their superior strategy/tactics/gameplay we still enjoy it more because we have revenge to look forward to (a rematch in a fun competitive way).
All this theoretically can do AI too.


Now it may be that financially or as far as resources go MP is not considered a priority, okay I get it, but dismissing multiplayer on a whim would surely be a mistake as well?
Certainly it is your game and I am just another opinion but I can imagine so many ways this game would be amazing in MP.
I have already cited statistics about MPs. Opinions of individuals (It does not matter who it is andrey12345 or Mucka) in this matter is uninteresting.

MP in best case feature for 10-15% players. In real world the best cases are rarely so 3-5%
Averaged DLC is feature for 15-30% players thus implemented with much greater and predictable result rather than MP.
As I mentioned, most of our team plays mostly in MP games and want terrible to do MP in our game  Cheesy. But thoughtless approach is not based on common sense is not our way. Therefore, the MP will do only after features that are made for 10%+ of the players. Not before.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:05:12 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
Dane49
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1479


« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2014, 01:06:41 PM »

Quote

Quote from: Mucka on Today at 02:21:05 AM

Why not just have AI v AI battles and leave out humans altogether?

If one of these AI will fund the development we'll make this mode too Smiley

LOL  Cheesy Grin
Logged
Wörghern
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 153



WWW
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2014, 05:38:08 PM »

One month and one day later, I should answer, isn't it ? All I can say is that, I don't play online so much...except Red Orchestra 2, Total War series, and cRPG Mod for Mount & Blade BUT, I had so much fun to play human vs human with the SSI license, Close Combat ! IF Graviteam Tactics become ONLINE, you'll make my DAY. So, direct online is a good choice. More virtual quidam I kill, more happy I will !  Cheesy


May the force be with you ! Wink
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 06:04:32 PM by Wörghern » Logged



Panzergranate Neun und Dreizig Geladen! Schuss!
jiltedjock
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 6


« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »

Although I like the idea of playing multiplayer, with a good lobby system etc, I wouldn't want OP to lose its main appeal for me - the AI.  The AI in Combat Mission is poor by comparison, and OP is offering the best WW2 tactical single player experience.  It would be a shame if OP became another game where the single player is experience is not the core part of the game.
Logged
Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2014, 09:38:11 PM »

Although I like the idea of playing multiplayer, with a good lobby system etc, I wouldn't want OP to lose its main appeal for me - the AI.  The AI in Combat Mission is poor by comparison, and OP is offering the best WW2 tactical single player experience.  It would be a shame if OP became another game where the single player is experience is not the core part of the game.

Of course.  I think it is simply people want their cake and to eat it too.  If simple sticking in a IP address could be done with minimal effort and work I would be ok with that.  I know few would use such, but those on this board would use it I am sure.  Going with lobby's and all that is not a small matter.  PIggy backing on an already used peer to peer lobby system might work ok.  Like steams.  But that is a lot of cash and time.  Baby just baby steps? 
Logged

Yabba dabba do
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!