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Author Topic: Which way do you prefer to play multiplayer games?  (Read 77537 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2014, 11:41:12 PM »

Some math for MP players from "Wargamers club 5000"

"The most users online at one time was 387 on 06-18-2012 at 06:32 AM"

This is the maximum number of players that were present simultaneously. Ie on this day, one could hope to choose from 387 players with whom to play (not from 5000!). Its better result from years.

Club supports 10+ games, with long MP story (CMx2, OAW, PC, SP, etc). Ie All these 387 players were divided into 10 games (we assume uniformly) - we have 38 players to each.
Imagine for a moment that there is a new previously unknown game with the MP mode. What part of the players will play it? I put on not more 10 on holydays and weekends? Who are more?  Grin
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« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2014, 12:03:43 AM »

Andrey, I don't understand why this thread exists.  It was put here by a company moderator to find out how we would prefer MP.  In addition there is also related info on your Facebook page asking the same question.  Yet, every single response to anyone that wishes to see MP implemented and the specific manner in which they might like to see it, there is a complete denial of a desire to implement MP in GTOS because who would ever want to play with anything other than the wonderful AI?   And it is not only a denial, it is often a denigration of those individuals' ability to assess what they really wished the product contained, including twisting their words and the facts to try to make a point.  Pretty soon this thread will be debating what the definition of "is" is.  If you didn't want to know what the customers thought then why ask?  Enough has been said, you obviously had your mind made up prior to the thread ever being posted and do not wish to hear anything from other than those that post 100% in agreement with you.  Sound familiar?
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Dane49
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« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2014, 01:37:47 AM »

I had my hopes up for MP also,but not World of Tanks or European Escalation type MP.
1 on 1 would have been nice.

The response though seems to indicate neither.
At this point I don't really care anymore. Sad

I'm not giving up all hope though but it seems MP is out for the near future and it's just becoming a pointless merry go round asking about it or discussing it any further.

I'm a little perturbed also as to why this thread was even started.
I had the initial impression that Graviteam had changed their mind concerning MP after years of saying no MP.
So what was the point in even asking us.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:40:49 AM by Dane49 » Logged
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« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2014, 04:41:19 AM »

Well guys,
While i do not believe 1v1 is in anyway anti-social, quite the opposite in fact.
In my experience this type of MP doesnt last, well at least not for long.
The thing with humans is they dont like to be beaten, certainly not over and over again, this soon leads to a situation where you cannot find an opponent to play.
The joy of AI is its always there, when you get home from work, early in the morning, week ends, anytime you want.
You can beat his ass a 1000 times and he's always back for more.
So while MP sounds good in theory, In practice, i dont think it would work for this style of game.
I havent played WOT, so i cannot comment.
I personally think the time and resourses needed to develope MP would be better used instead to improve the game and AI further.
But please dont crucify me for saying so, its just my opinion.

I disagree Schuck, because of my long, and enjoyable experience in playing CM against other humans in pbem and tcp/ip games as well as the Command Ops games in the same way.  The Blitz Wargaming Club is a prime example of people playing this type of game, win or lose, they keep coming back for more.  MP is the missing link for this game.
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2014, 04:50:44 AM »

Some math for MP players from "Wargamers club 5000"

"The most users online at one time was 387 on 06-18-2012 at 06:32 AM"

This is the maximum number of players that were present simultaneously. Ie on this day, one could hope to choose from 387 players with whom to play (not from 5000!). Its better result from years.

Club supports 10+ games, with long MP story (CMx2, OAW, PC, SP, etc). Ie All these 387 players were divided into 10 games (we assume uniformly) - we have 38 players to each.
Imagine for a moment that there is a new previously unknown game with the MP mode. What part of the players will play it? I put on not more 10 on holydays and weekends? Who are more?  Grin


Again you are misinterpreting facts and figures.  Players do not have to be online in the forums in order to participate in MP sessions in the games you mention.  The games are not played on line on a server.  Participants may connect by direct ip or by pbem.   Therefore your 387 does not reflect the number of potential opponents, it only shows the number of club members on the forum at that particular time.  If I, as a club member posted a request for a game, I would have plenty of offers in a short while. 

Honestly Andrey, the best solution is to have both options available.  With the state of today's ai and computing power, an ai opponent is definitely inferior to a human, in my estimation.
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« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2014, 04:51:35 AM »

I agree in part with what you're saying, of course, dare I say it Smiley we could have BOTH styles of play available and that would suit both prefernces at any time. Cheesy.

Regards

Aces

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« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2014, 05:07:14 AM »

Sorry Andrey but you are twisting definitions to fit your argument.  This is about the ability to enjoy a game with players of your choosing, not egalitarianism.  I don't think too many people will agree that 1 vs 1 is actually anti-social. 

The very fact that one person is interacting with another makes it a social interaction.  The number is relatively unimportant.  I have no objection if the game allows x vs. x number of players as long as I can define whom those will be.  I actually consider the behavior of large groups of random strangers (WOT for example) to be, potentially, much more anti-social than a 1 vs. 1 set up.

Apparently we somehow have different understandings of the term social. I do not know how to lead a discussion, if you do not use words according to their purpose, but as you like.
If you like to call black as white, good   Cheesy. I have no objection, the problem is that this not be a constructive discussion.


Unfortunately I feel that you are doing exactly that yourself.  To satisfy yourself, ask a cross section of English speakers if an interaction between two individuals, such as a conversation or a card game is anti-social.  I don't believe I am the one confusing the colors.

In any event it is a moot point.  It does not matter what we call it.  I think the first post asked what form of mp we preferred to play.  I wouldn't prefer to play with total strangers that I will probably never play another session with again.  They have no incentive, to behave correctly and in a responsible way in a gaming sense.  Members of the Blitz Club, which you lightly dismiss, play thousands of games and for the most part there is little of the disruptive behavior seen on WOT, BF3 servers that we so often see with hacks and general hooliganism (like that old soviet era term?  Grin)  I'd say the situation that you describe as social actually has much more potential for anti-social behavior than a direct ip connection between folks that know each other and have an online reputation to protect.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:18:24 AM by Tanker » Logged

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andrey12345
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« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2014, 01:04:08 PM »

Andrey, I don't understand why this thread exists.  It was put here by a company moderator to find out how we would prefer MP.
Yes of course in the technical aspects. But no one bothers to express any private views Grin.

You speek MP, I am speek SP, Aces speeks Both  Grin. It is good and we can evaluate different options.
But it is always worth to remember that the game will be made on the basis of objective criteria but not one private opinion, no matter whose opinion - andrey12345 or Tanker or Aces.

Yet, every single response to anyone that wishes to see MP implemented and the specific manner in which they might like to see it, there is a complete denial of a desire to implement MP in GTOS because who would ever want to play with anything other than the wonderful AI?

I never said that. I say that AI is potentially better than the other human as opponent, and many times brought why:
1) No fails
2) Always ready to play
3) Always plays on your rules
4) Potentially plays better than the average player (this is in general to be tested in future)
This is all Smiley. What modes will be in our games is irrelevant. Please, do not need to attribute the words I did not say.



  And it is not only a denial, it is often a denigration of those individuals' ability to assess what they really wished the product contained, including twisting their words and the facts to try to make a point.  Pretty soon this thread will be debating what the definition of "is" is.  If you didn't want to know what the customers thought then why ask?  Enough has been said, you obviously had your mind made up prior to the thread ever being posted and do not wish to hear anything from other than those that post 100% in agreement with you.  Sound familiar?

I'm a customer like everyone else, in this case. Why do you think that my point of view (which by the way has always argued) - has no right to life?
I did not denigrate, try to be objective. For it can not be guided by their opinion - just statistics. Statistics tells us that out of 100% registered in the best case we get 10% of the players, typically 1-3%. That's it.

Simple math says 
5000 - 100%
x - 10% (1-3%)

x = 5000 / 100 * 10 (1-3%) = 500 ( 150-50) = best (realistic) case = no money from MP feature.

I do not deny these, may be this 500-50 can be the most loyal fans of our game. But the argument about money and earnings in this sense does not apply.

No subjectives or opinions - simple math.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2014, 01:16:53 PM »

I had my hopes up for MP also,but not World of Tanks or European Escalation type MP.
1 on 1 would have been nice.
In this case its totally nitche feature w/o perspectives.

The response though seems to indicate neither.
At this point I don't really care anymore. Sad

I'm not giving up all hope though but it seems MP is out for the near future and it's just becoming a pointless merry go round asking about it or discussing it any further.

I'm a little perturbed also as to why this thread was even started.
I had the initial impression that Graviteam had changed their mind concerning MP after years of saying no MP.
So what was the point in even asking us.

We "changed" their opinion long ago, in our first game was the MP with different modes, we make training complexes what based on MP, etc. All our employees play in MP games, some for long, even some in wargames  Grin. They imagine how things are now. Some (mostly ~75% ) really want MP in our game  Cheesy. But let's be realistic - it makes no sense to produce such feature (MP too) an implementation in which no audience with whom to play - that fails in most times.
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« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2014, 01:20:35 PM »

Hi Andrey so let's forget MP, what about 1 vs 1 Human players, that doesn't mean MP (multiple players) on each side.

Regards

Aces
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andrey12345
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« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2014, 01:24:00 PM »

Again you are misinterpreting facts and figures.  Players do not have to be online in the forums in order to participate in MP sessions in the games you mention. 
But how did they find anyone to play with, if in most wargames connection is through IP entry, without any advanced search mechanisms in the game? All of these people do not go to work and do not sleep and are always ready to play?
I think you're wrong  Wink

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andrey12345
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« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2014, 01:28:32 PM »

Hi Andrey so let's forget MP, what about 1 vs 1 Human players, that doesn't mean MP (multiple players) on each side.

Sorry, dont understand.
I think 2 players is multiple too.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2014, 01:35:09 PM »

In any event it is a moot point.  It does not matter what we call it.  I think the first post asked what form of mp we preferred to play.  I wouldn't prefer to play with total strangers that I will probably never play another session with again.  They have no incentive, to behave correctly and in a responsible way in a gaming sense.  Members of the Blitz Club, which you lightly dismiss, play thousands of games and for the most part there is little of the disruptive behavior seen on WOT, BF3 servers that we so often see with hacks and general hooliganism (like that old soviet era term?  Grin)  I'd say the situation that you describe as social actually has much more potential for anti-social behavior than a direct ip connection between folks that know each other and have an online reputation to protect.
It already has consequences. So to say the level of sociality.

P.S. Okay, I give up!  Grin
2 players is most social than 70K-1000K in WOT.

P.P.S "hooliganism" is an British Empire term, Hooligan name of English Lord from XVIII century who robbed near London. Sorry you are miss Smiley If you want Russian term is "gopnik". Extended from GOP - Government institutions of public charity - is from 20s of XX century.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:47:28 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2014, 03:04:42 PM »

Hi Andrey so let's forget MP, what about 1 vs 1 Human players, that doesn't mean MP (multiple players) on each side.

Sorry, dont understand.
I think 2 players is multiple too.

Sigh, okay, I surrender, 2 player is multiple, the world is flat and the Tooth Fairy exists!! Smiley I think if you ask virtually anyone in the gaming community for a definition of multi-player they'd answer that "multiple" means many rather than just two players, often considerably more than two if you add massive to multiple in the definition.

In the meantime here's a picture of someone trying to split hairs with a razor blade  Smiley

« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:39:36 PM by Aces » Logged


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andrey12345
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« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2014, 03:49:55 PM »

Hi Andrey so let's forget MP, what about 1 vs 1 Human players, that doesn't mean MP (multiple players) on each side.

Sorry, dont understand.
I think 2 players is multiple too.

Sigh, okay, I surrender, 2 player is multiple, the world is flat and the Tooth Fairy exists!! Smiley I think if you ask virtually anyone in the gaming community for a definition of multi-player they'd answer that "multiple" means many rather than just two players, often considerably more than two if you add massive to multiple in the definition.

Speaking the language of math more than 1 is a multiple (many).

For "masses in MP" have common call - MMO.

Ie MMO is a special case of MP, MP is a common term.

But as in the case of social anyone can call it whatever he like  Grin
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« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2014, 03:54:55 PM »

In the meantime here's a picture of someone trying to split hairs with a razor blade  Smiley

Somthimes it is needed and lead to beautiful things  Grin





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« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2014, 03:58:13 PM »



Very interesting Cheesy

Never mind "Honey I shrank the kids!", more like "Моя люба, я стиснувся Т-34!" Not sure about the gold camo scheme.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 04:04:52 PM by Aces » Logged


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« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2014, 07:33:35 PM »

Again you are misinterpreting facts and figures.  Players do not have to be online in the forums in order to participate in MP sessions in the games you mention. 
But how did they find anyone to play with, if in most wargames connection is through IP entry, without any advanced search mechanisms in the game? All of these people do not go to work and do not sleep and are always ready to play?
I think you're wrong  Wink



Go on the forum.  Post that you wish to play a game.  State your preferences.  Some other person who also wishes a game then posts, accepting your invitation.  You arrange a time to meet for a real time ip game or send the first move of a pbem game.  If ip game, set up the game, give your ip to your opponent, he connects with it, the game begins.  Both CM and Command Ops have very fine mechanisms for setting up an ip game.   No "advanced" search mechanism needed.

It's really not rocket science Andrey.  You seem like a smart fellow, I'm sure you can understand the concept, if you really want to that is. Wink
 
Since I've done it dozens, if not hundreds of times, if I'm wrong then it means I am either a liar or an imbecile.  I can assure you, neither case is correct.

PS. Hooligans is the term always used in the English translation of Izvestia articles about any anti Soviet activists during the USSR era.  I have no idea if it was an accurate translation of the Russian.  Obiviously I know it is an English word and not Russian but it has that curiously stilted, ill fitting feeling that was associated with Stalin, Breshnev, Andropov, and Chernenko.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:46:06 PM by Tanker » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: February 19, 2014, 07:44:58 PM »

Guys,
Whilst i understand what you are saying, i personally have no issue with 1v1.
It is how it how it would be implemented to the satisfaction of all that worries me.
I dont know how large Graviteam is, but my concern is that by using the time and resourses available to add MP to the game it would but back the release date for MIUS,
possibly by many months.
And although this thread has been viewed over 1000 times, there are only 15 different people that have posted. (Plus Andrey!)
In fact only 118 on Facebook, Its not a massive audience.
I can see what the original topic was, but this seems to have wandered slightly off track.
Would the effort not be better directed to finishing MIUS first, then worry about MP?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:46:30 PM by Schuck » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »

That's Andrey's call isn't it?  I'm sure he'll do what he feels is best for his company.

Most people don't voice their opinion on a subject for various reasons.  That doesn't mean that they don't have an opinion or that they won't act on that opinion, either in the "privacy of the voting booth" or in game purchases.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:53:35 PM by Tanker » Logged

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