Controlling your platoon - any tips or tricks???

[33lima]

Hi folks

I was wondering, what methods do experienced players use, to manage their 'wingmen' (hate that term in a tanksim but you know what I mean) in a battle?

I usually select 'Do as I do' and choose a suitable formation in the F8 planning map before launching the mission, with 'Always obey orders' selected in the sim's realism options. The effect of this seems to be variable; sometimes my 'wingmen' lag well behind or zoom ahead, shooting at targets they do not report over the radio. I wish there were hotkeys for at least formation changes, so you didn't have to go to the map (and that your 'wingmen' talked to you on the radio!). I have used the 'find cover' command a few times but not often enough to appreciate howbest to use it.

Take the 'Panthers Last Roar' mission. There were two points where I really wanted better control.

First, coming up to the embankment west of the river/marsh area. I wanted my 'wingman' to be by my side as we came up to the top of the bank, so that we could both stop together there and spot and shoot any enemies on the slope ahead, preferably from hull down. I tried to achieve this by changing from column to line (abreast) formation when I turned right and climbed the bank. The idea was that we would form a line parallel to the crest of the bank; then he would halt when I did, just short of the top. But he stayed behind me, instead of driving up level with me, into line abreast. I think there was not enough time and space between the dirt road below the bank and the top, where I stopped. So he just stopped when I did, instead of continuing on until he had completed the formation change. Maybe it would have worked, if I had first turned away from the bank, then back towards it, to create enough time and space for him to settle in beside me? Might that have worked? Is there another way?

Second, when we were together near the captured Soviet defensive positions, we were caught by surprise by T-44s appearing over on our right. I turned my tank to engage and got them. But I would have appreciated more help from my 'wingman'. I would have wanted him to 'face right'/'right turn!' - basically, to maintain close line abreast formation on me, turning as I turned, to face the targets. He seems to have done this eventually - he was knocked out, facing that way - but he seems to have taken his time and got none of the kills. If I had completed my turn to face the enemy THEN given the command 'find cover! (stopping my own tank if I wanted but letting my 'wingman' complete the move) would that have got him into position, facing the same way I was facing, in a good position to help me engage the enemies that had appeared on our flank? Was there a better way?

I realise the AI in SF, tho better than some, has significant limitations and that the facilities to command your platoon are also quite limited. Perhaps in that sense SF is better at simulating Soviet practice, where radios were limited and tactics were more 'canned' and rigid, emphasising the concentrated and sustained application of force strictly in line with the overall commander's initial plan. But I am interested in finding the best ways possible to play the platoon commander role, to lead and manage my men in battle, as I should.

[lockie]

I was wondering, what methods do experienced players use, to manage their 'wingmen' in a battle?

According to my experience, there is only one method how to force wingman to obey the command.
1. Press F8
2. select distance(short) and formation (line). If u choose `column`, then prepare one(or both) thank will turned over, coz he can't get through his teammate to be in line. AI is complete idiot as formation `column`.
3. Make a route where to, then get back to the game.
4. take a seat of driver, press break and give wingmen moved a couple meters, then press F8 again
5. now press `stop`, then select `do as I do`
AND ONLY in this case wingmen will follow u in the formation `line`.
If u want them to stay near u, then u MUST ALWAYS watch on them and if they move, then immediately press F8 and `stop`+`do as i do`.
As I told, SF supposed for the single player. Wingmen plays a role of the furniture. Mostly, nobody care where they are and what they are doing and where to. In the mission EVERYTHING depends on the player. He is main hero! And practically all missions has markers where to go, so no need to be bothered what should be done next.
Thus no need to make complicate maneuvers. I.e. in the mission `Last roar panther`u've to follow the markers and shoot whatever u see.
In SF it's impossible to operate precisely with platoon. It's possible in the GTOS and SABOW or any other strategy game.
And there is another command, which works partially:
- find cover
It works in case, if author of the mission already prepared such positions. If not, then wingmen will go the hell know where.

PS
Oh and there is one moment with radio. If radio damaged, then u could not operate with platoon at all. Well, there are some pictures with rockets, voice commands, but they don't work either.

[Kyth]

Second, when we were together near the captured Soviet defensive positions, we were caught by surprise by T-44s appearing over on our right. I turned my tank to engage and got them. But I would have appreciated more help from my 'wingman'. I would have wanted him to 'face right'/'right turn!' - basically, to maintain close line abreast formation on me, turning as I turned, to face the targets. He seems to have done this eventually - he was knocked out, facing that way - but he seems to have taken his time and got none of the kills. If I had completed my turn to face the enemy THEN given the command 'find cover! (stopping my own tank if I wanted but letting my 'wingman' complete the move) would that have got him into position, facing the same way I was facing, in a good position to help me engage the enemies that had appeared on our flank? Was there a better way?

In the situations you described, you could use the 'Turn' order (2 in the screenshot below) and click on the map where you want your tanks to face.
I've found this to be very useful in a tight spot.
Good luck!

[Kyth]

First, coming up to the embankment west of the river/marsh area. I wanted my 'wingman' to be by my side as we came up to the top of the bank, so that we could both stop together there and spot and shoot any enemies on the slope ahead, preferably from hull down. I tried to achieve this by changing from column to line (abreast) formation when I turned right and climbed the bank. The idea was that we would form a line parallel to the crest of the bank; then he would halt when I did, just short of the top. But he stayed behind me, instead of driving up level with me, into line abreast. I think there was not enough time and space between the dirt road below the bank and the top, where I stopped. So he just stopped when I did, instead of continuing on until he had completed the formation change. Maybe it would have worked, if I had first turned away from the bank, then back towards it, to create enough time and space for him to settle in beside me? Might that have worked? Is there another way?

It's not precise, but you could try stopping below the crest first, change formation to line abreast, then give orders to move up to the top.
It works for me.
By the way, I never use 'do as I do'.

[33lima]

Thanks for the tips, Lockie & Kyth, that is exactly the sort of experience I was hoping somebody would be able to report. It seems that there is some hope to educate or control the 'furniture', Lockie! I will try turning off 'Do as I do' and use the methods described, instead.

I have always enjoyed most those sims that allow you to play as platoon commander or flight leader - First Eagles for example, where half the fun is leading your patrol, trying to follow the dicta of Boelcke or Mannock, spotting enemies, then manoeuvring your flight into the best position for an attack, and hopefully bringing them home alive and with a kill or two of their own. It is a bit different in a ground battle of course but even so, the role of the leader opens up a whole new set of tactical opportunities, choosing the best formation and bringing to bear the firepower of the whole platoon, not just your own tank. As SF (and most SF missions) puts the player in the role of a platoon commander, I want to to make the most of what it can do - even if that's not very much!

I guess that it may be possible to use the 'halt' and 'move' commands to move tactically - what they call 'bounding overwatch' in the US Army. Go F8-map and order 'halt' when the platoon is in a decent fire position. Then move forward on my own, so the 'wingmen' are halted and able to cover me (hopefully they will stay, having been given the 'halt' command). Then halt my own tank. Go F8-map and order 'Move' to a marked position next to me (for what we called 'caterpillar-ing') or ahead of me ('leapfrogging' - the US Army I know has different terms for these forms of 'bounding overwatch'). That sort of thing. Fire and manoeuvre. Like the parrot climbing the cage, always one foot holding firm while the other is moving.

Part of the problem with some SF missions is the common 'mad charge' where everybody just rushes the objective. If the AI are not advancing cautiously and tactically, you tend to get left behind. I should add that to my principles of mission design - 'Slow it down - keep the mad charges for surprise attacks - or suicide missions, featuring the bad boys of the good old 27th Panzers (zur Besonderen Verwendung) - allow time for realistic tactics'

[Kyth]

Part of the problem with some SF missions is the common 'mad charge' where everybody just rushes the objective. If the AI are not advancing cautiously and tactically, you tend to get left behind. I should add that to my principles of mission design - 'Slow it down - keep the mad charges for surprise attacks - or suicide missions, featuring the bad boys of the good old 27th Panzers (zur Besonderen Verwendung) - allow time for realistic tactics'

It's all part of the mission scripting for the AI units.
One solution is to set up the 'soft-skins' to wait for a trigger before moving - for example, when certain critical enemy defense units have been eliminated, or reduced in strength. Or the trigger could be your tank / platoon reaching an important waypoint. Or if an objective has been captured. Etc. etc!
There are many alternatives for the mission designer. 

[Tanker]

First, coming up to the embankment west of the river/marsh area. I wanted my 'wingman' to be by my side as we came up to the top of the bank, so that we could both stop together there and spot and shoot any enemies on the slope ahead, preferably from hull down. I tried to achieve this by changing from column to line (abreast) formation when I turned right and climbed the bank. The idea was that we would form a line parallel to the crest of the bank; then he would halt when I did, just short of the top. But he stayed behind me, instead of driving up level with me, into line abreast. I think there was not enough time and space between the dirt road below the bank and the top, where I stopped. So he just stopped when I did, instead of continuing on until he had completed the formation change. Maybe it would have worked, if I had first turned away from the bank, then back towards it, to create enough time and space for him to settle in beside me? Might that have worked? Is there another way?

It's not precise, but you could try stopping below the crest first, change formation to line abreast, then give orders to move up to the top.
It works for me.
By the way, I never use 'do as I do'.

Kyth, why do you never use the "do as I do" command?

[Kyth]

Kyth, why do you never use the "do as I do" command?

I simply never saw the need to.
The AI isn't wonderful, but I find that it works reasonably well, when you're not trying to tug it along on a leash. 
Also, they spot better when they're not moving, increasing the chances of them shooting and hitting the enemy.
Order the 'wingmen' into the right area, set them facing the right way, and most of the time that's enough to get the job done,

[33lima]

Kyth, why do you never use the "do as I do" command?

I simply never saw the need to.
The AI isn't wonderful, but I find that it works reasonably well, when you're not trying to tug it along on a leash. 
Also, they spot better when they're not moving, increasing the chances of them shooting and hitting the enemy.
Order the 'wingmen' into the right area, set them facing the right way, and most of the time that's enough to get the job done,

That's going to be hard to get used to, as I generally play the platoon/troop leader role in tanksims (oddly enough) by leading the platoon/troop, changing formation as necessary. Even in PE, where you can split your platoon into 'fire teams' and can order individual tanks to move to a specific spot.

It seems that maybe in SF the best thing to do - if like me, you want to be the leader, not necessarily as Lockie puts it, the hero - may be to use your platoon-mates as a base of fire. Set them up somewhere they can cover your own tank's move. Then move them forward another 'tactical bound' while you are stationary and watching, covering their move. Rinse and repeat.

I tried this out in a Panther mission I hadn't played before - I don't think I'll test with that one again as my tankended up being strafed by the lethal Sturmoviks! But it did not work very well, even before then. In the map I ordered my two 'wingmen' forward a hundred metres or so, intending to wait till they stopped, them move my own tank up to (or past) them. But they just kept on going, past the waypoint, and would not stop - perhaps they had the enemy in sight and decided to do their own thing. Perhaps I need to keep the bounds fairly short. And/or act like the front part of the caterpillar, instead of like it's a**se. Move ahead myself, then stop and bring them up. Instead of sending them on ahead as the first move.

This will take a bit of practice! I think I need to take the platoon out onto a field training area, instead of practicing on the 'two-way range'. Perhaps make a copy of (say) the Tiger (I like Tigers!) driving mission and replace the single Tiger with a platoon of, say, 4 tanks. And then rehearse somewhere nice and safe, before taking the show on tour.

Is there an easy way to identify a mission from its filename in the cm_pack_missionXX folder? The Mission Editor doesn't seem to let you do a 'Save as' so will it work if I copy & rename the source mission's .level file, then edit and save that, to create a clone?

[lockie]

Is there an easy way to identify a mission from its filename in the cm_pack_missionXX folder? The Mission Editor doesn't seem to let you do a 'Save as' so will it work if I copy & rename the source mission's .level file, then edit and save that, to create a clone?

Yes. Start the defined mission, i.e. "Tiger driving".
Then exit the game and open file:
data\k42\loc_rus\levels\cur_mission.engcfg
where u can see

   cur_mission   =   levels\levels\cm_pack_mission20\tiger_driving.level;
   cur_code   =   campaign40;
   cur_camp   =   mission_pack20;
   image   =   tiger_drvng.jpg;
   citate   =   txt_tiger_cit;
   citate_num   =   3;
   end_image   =   ;
   end_text   =   ;
   beg_video   =   ;
   end_video   =   ;

We need file tiger_driving.level
Open it:
data\k42\loc_rus\levels\LEVELS\cm_pack_mission20\tiger_driving.level

   env_arc   = envs\M17_Kazan\M17_Kazan.polypack;
   env_desc   = M17_Kazan.poly;
   loc_data   = scripts\cm_pack_mission20\tiger_driving_loc_data.text;
   scripts   = scripts\cm_pack_mission20\tiger_driving_scripts.engscr;
   start_hours   = 12;
   start_minutes   = 0;
   use_weather_def   = false;
   weater_speed   = 0.030;
   weather   = clear;
   weather_cycle   = 480;
   weather_file   = weather\weather_simash.engcfg;
   weather_pos   = 0;
   zones   = scripts\cm_pack_mission20\tiger_driving_zones.engcfg;

We need the three next files to be inspected:
- tiger_driving_loc_data.text (text file)
- tiger_driving_scripts.engscr (scripts for the mission)
- tiger_driving_zones.engcfg (information abt zones on the polygon)
I'd recommend to create a new mission, i.e. platoon_control on the polygon M17_Kazan or any other. Then just copy the content of the files from the mission "Tiger driving".

[33lima]

OK thanks Lockie, will give that a go tomorrow!

[33lima]

Ok that worked. Using the 'create mission' utility created the new missions in the user mission set. Copied and pasted in the text from the Tiger driving mission files. Loaded up the new mission in the ME and created a new 'division', three Tiger 1 (late). Made it the player unit and deleted the original single Tiger 'division'. Disaster! My two 'wingmen' appeared in front of my tank, on their sides! Seems they are trying to 'materialise' on the same spot as me. Worked out the contour needed replacing so created a new longer one and dragged my # 2 and #3 to each side (I always put odd numbers on the left, even on the right - an old habit).

This time it worked! I need to get rid of leftover messages/triggers/scripts from the driver training mission and whatever is preventing me from going to the tank commander position and opening his hatch, add a better loading screen picture etc...but it works!

And I've been able to get some rudimentary 'bounding overwatch' working. Get them into line abreast. F8/map then order 'Halt'. Move forward myself and stop, while the other two cover me from the halt. F8/map then order 'Do as I do' - the two Tigers move up and re-form on me in line abreast.

May also be able to send them on ahead first using 'Move' but seems more reliable/predictable if I move first then they close up on me. Even if I change direction when moving, my 'wingmen' will still re-form on me.

Perhaps not much use in those SF missions where everyone else on my side has a death wish and does the Mad Charge thing, while I'm being 'tactical'. But it's really good to know there's a way to do a little bit of platoon fire and manoeuvre in SF:

http://combatace.com/gallery/image/28463-practicing-fire-and-manouevre-in-steel-fury-kharkov-1942-1-my-tiger-moves-forward-covered-by-my-numbers-2-and-3/

http://combatace.com/gallery/image/28462-practicing-fire-and-manouevre-in-steel-fury-kharkov-1942-2-my-tiger-halts-and-my-numbers-2-and-3-move-up-to-re-form-on-me-in-line-abreast

http://combatace.com/gallery/image/28461-practicing-fire-and-manouevre-in-steel-fury-kharkov-1942-3-my-number-3-tank-has-halted-to-my-left/

http://combatace.com/gallery/image/28460-practicing-fire-and-manouevre-in-steel-fury-kharkov-1942-4-my-number-2-tank-has-halted-to-my-right/

Whether the wingmen will continue to behave themselves once the shooting starts may be a different matter - but it is very helpful to be able to move realistically in bounds at least up to the the Effective Fire Line (the point where enemy fire would cause casualties if you didn't do something about it). I think 'Counterstrike' would be a good mission to check if I can continue to do platoon fire and manoeuvre in the assault, as well.

[lockie]

Would u be pleased to make a short explanation how to operate with wingmen? I think it'll be a very useful for the beginners. Smth, like this - some words with picture explanations. Then I'll place such tutor on the first page. Actually, there is default mission how to move by points, but mission from user will be better.
my Tiger moves forward, covered by my numbers 2 and 3


my Tiger halts, and my numbers 2 and 3 move up to re-form on me in line abreast


my number 3 tank has halted to my left


my number 2 tank has halted to my right

[33lima]

Yes I'll have a go at that. I need to spend a bit more time experimenting first, for example to check out whether I can also reliably move the wingmen forward first, with my tank staying back as the 'base of fire' (this did not work well when I tried it in a combat mission). Also whether the method I used above, itself works in combat as well as in the 'field training area'.

If am able to work out the other aspects, I would like to have a go at a training mission, a sort of field firing exercise where the player's task is to move in bounds until they make contact with the enemy; then engage a series of tank targets (if it is possible to set up enemy tanks which do not move or shoot back, like target hulks on a firing range; then move up fast and adopt defensive positions near the 'objective' he has just cleared. Maybe add a last phase where 'moving tank targets' simulate a counterattack.

Maybe that would be a lot of effort but (i) a realistic training mission might actually be fun and (ii) if I can make it, with a suitable briefing and perhaps even a document to read first, it would be useful, with the player able to practice platoon control, fire control/gunnery and other tactical drills all in one mission...and in a Tiger!!!

Is it possible to set up tanks which do NOT move and do NOT shoot - T-34-76s would be ideal - and non-firing AT guns, with no crew preferably, on a map? The whole point is they behave like targets in a range.

If I could make that sort of mission, I could make the document based on that. Or I could also make a play-through of the mission into a simulated 'training film' with titles and voice-over - a bit like this one, from back in 'my day':

[lockie]

for example to check out whether I can also reliably move the wingmen forward first, with my tank staying back as the 'base of fire'

It's possible in case, if u use formation "no formation", then u may send a wingmen to move forward.

I would like to have a go at a training mission, a sort of field firing exercise where the player's task is to move in bounds until they make contact with the enemy;

It's unpredictable how AI wingmen will act. All u can do as command "do as me", if u care abt formation.

then engage a series of tank targets (if it is possible to set up enemy tanks which do not move or shoot back

It's possible, u`ve to define that enemy tank in the trench and write down script that enemy tank is out of ammo(both MG and gun).

Maybe that would be a lot of effort

I may help u with script and I think that polygon for driving doesn't suit for the fire training. We can use already prepared or make a new one(that's variant preferable, coz u can make whatever u want).

Is it possible to set up tanks which do NOT move and do NOT shoot - T-34-76s

Yeap.

would be ideal - and non-firing AT guns, with no crew preferably, on a map?

Yeap.

If I could make that sort of mission, I could make the document based on that.

Be my guest.

[Kyth]

Whether the wingmen will continue to behave themselves once the shooting starts may be a different matter - but it is very helpful to be able to move realistically in bounds at least up to the the Effective Fire Line (the point where enemy fire would cause casualties if you didn't do something about it). I think 'Counterstrike' would be a good mission to check if I can continue to do platoon fire and manoeuvre in the assault, as well.

The friendly AI works as advertised, until the enemy shows up and starts taking pot-shots at them.
Then the tactical AI routine takes over and may override whatever orders you issued.
This tendency might be reduced, if you use the 'always obey orders' option.

[33lima]

Ok the alternative method is working.

Method 1 - I move first: I order Halt from the map screen, then move forward first myself. Then stop my tank and in the map screen & order 'Do as I do', to get the other tanks to close up with me again. As seen in previous post.

Method 2 - They move first: from the TC unbuttoned view, use F+RMB to designate a position to move to, immediately hitting Q (if done fast enough my own tank will not move at all). The other tanks will move forward and halt, covered by me. They will stay there and I can move up, stop between them and then order them to advance again while I give cover. Or I can keep moving and 'leapfrog' them - they will not move when I pass them, which is good.

Sending my numbers 2 & 3 forward, while I cover them


My numbers 2 & 3 have moved ahead and stopped, while I provided cover from the halt; now, it's my turn to move


I have leapfrogged my numbers 2 & 3 who are halted, covering me


I have halted again and ordered my numbers 2 & 3 to move ahead another bound


My numbers 2 & 3 have passed me and are moving ahead, while I now cover them from the halt


So far I think method 2 may be best. No need to go to the map screen (I wish there were hotkeys for the ALL map screen commands!) and - because you cannot take over another platoon tank, if yours is knocked out - it is less risky. Method 1 has some advantages, though. First it perhaps gives you more control over direction and fire positions as you move first. Second, if you send the others on ahead and they hit contact, you may not see it, and they will not send a contact report on the radio (though I THINK that you can go to the map screen to see what targets they have spotted).

Anyway so far so good. Lockie is right, the driving test map is not ideal, too many obstacles. I have got rid of un-necessary scripts left over  from the driver training mission but a fresh start with a different map may be better, one with not too many woods and plenty of dips and folds in the ground for fire positions.

[kapulA]

Thanks for writing this up, bound to be useful to new players who've yet to master the application of their plt in combat
I mostly use the map screen for move orders and overwatch as it's more precise than the Ctrl RMB combo, but I might amend my ways while in combat as this seems like an appreciably faster solution - looking forward to see it in an actual AAR.

[33lima]

Thanks KapulA. I need to spend a bit more time experimenting. I have tried the 'Move' command from the map but while you can designate an exact spot on the map:

(i) I had to be very quick when returning to the game, to stop my own tank, as it has started to move already (F+RMB+Q is a lot faster and can catch my tank before it has begun to move); and

(ii) both my platoon-mates moved forward and converged on the same designated spot, colliding with one another on the way. Keystone Cops with Tiger tanks. Fun to watch but would be a whole lot less amusing in action 

I'll do a bit more work with the guys in the field training area and then try it out with the Ivans. If it still works ok I'll do the how-to write-up in one document, Lockie has asked for.

[lockie]

Yesterday I played a couple times mission #5. I had two wingmen under control. I`ve to confess it's impossible to force them to obey. Right immediately when they`ve seen enemy, they becomes unpredictable and doesn't care what commands had been received.

It does that user may command over their wingmen just for interesting/funny. As I told before the main hero is user's tank. All other units made only as furniture and decoration for the mission.