Controlling your platoon - any tips or tricks???

[Tanker]

That's why missions often end up with the player's tank being the only thing left alive, if he's lucky and good.

[33lima]

Yesterday I played a couple times mission #5. I had two wingmen under control. I`ve to confess it's impossible to force them to obey. Right immediately when they`ve seen enemy, they becomes unpredictable and doesn't care what commands had been received.

I have noticed that too, Lockie, but:

(i) I'm not sure, yet, that they go off on their own every time, especially if you have 'Always obey orders' selected; and

(ii) even if they always do go off, part of the reason for moving tactically is for the time BEFORE they see the enemy - when you're doing an 'advance to contact'. Even if this does not last long, fire and movement can be useful. Examples. If you are moving ahead and hit contact first, your 'wingmen' may be able to spot the enemy faster (because they are not moving) and save the hero's hide. Or if they don't react, you may be able to order them to flank the enemy, or do something else useful. If they are ahead, hit contact first and start fighting independently and won't obey orders, well that's fine too. Because then I can flank the enemy(whose presence their reaction has alerted me to), or think of something clever to do, while they draw his fire.

Either way, using fire and movement up to the Effective Fire Line may be quite useful, even if the 'wingmen' do their own thing once they are engaged with the enemy.

[33lima]

That's why missions often end up with the player's tank being the only thing left alive, if he's lucky and good.

I'm sure that's part of the reason. But given the AI may be neither as good nor as lucky as the player, this sort of outcome may also be a function of mission design. Perhaps either:

(i) the AI units are programmed to do a 'Mad Charge' directly at unsuppressed defences, without (for example) giving the player enough time, or suitable orders in the briefing, to take up fire positions from which he can support the advance by fire; or

(ii) the mission designer has stacked the odds against the player, never mind Napoleon (or anyone else who said the same thing) on the need to have more forces than the enemy at the point you're attacking (or being attacked), preferably at least 3 to 1. Simmers may like a life or death challenge but soldiers do not and real commanders do their very best to avoid it. I, for one, quite like missions where the commander succeeded

[Kyth]

I'd be glad for any input on my old home-made missions, if you've tried them out.
It would definitely be useful for any future missions I devise (yes there will be more  )

[Tanker]

(ii) the mission designer has stacked the odds against the player, never mind Napoleon (or anyone else who said the same thing) on the need to have more forces than the enemy at the point you're attacking (or being attacked), preferably at least 3 to 1. Simmers may like a life or death challenge but soldiers do not and real commanders do their very best to avoid it. I, for one, quite like missions where the commander succeeded

I agree and that's why a strategic overlay wherein the commander can arrange this local superiority and then resolve it tactically is so enjoyable when it is available in war games.

[33lima]

I'd be glad for any input on my old home-made missions, if you've tried them out.
It would definitely be useful for any future missions I devise (yes there will be more  )

I have played one or two Panzer III missions but I lose my nerve when those nasty T-34s or KVs appear. This is why I like Tigers (or KVs). But yes I do want to try some missions in 'panzergrau'. I can always try using fire and manoeuvre, but to the rear. 

[33lima]

(ii) the mission designer has stacked the odds against the player, never mind Napoleon (or anyone else who said the same thing) on the need to have more forces than the enemy at the point you're attacking (or being attacked), preferably at least 3 to 1. Simmers may like a life or death challenge but soldiers do not and real commanders do their very best to avoid it. I, for one, quite like missions where the commander succeeded

I agree and that's why a strategic overlay wherein the commander can arrange this local superiority and then resolve it tactically is so enjoyable when it is available in war games.

Does GTOS work that way?

I have not played much Combat Mission (original) or Theatre of War (1st one there, too) because (tho the latter at least will allow you to group units) they simulate wargaming with miniatures not real war, because they allow or worse force the player to manageqand move individual tanks or soldiers, ignoring the chain of command.

When I last experimented with wargames (1/300) I saw for the first time a set of wargame rules which REALLY got this right - a Wargames Research Group set for WW2. This was built around the concept that the player, operating as a company of battalion commander, was in the business of giving orders to platoons, who carried them out using set drills, not moving every piece on the table as it it was a chessboard.

[33lima]

I'd be glad for any input on my old home-made missions, if you've tried them out.
It would definitely be useful for any future missions I devise (yes there will be more  )

Hi Kyth!

the only one I have tried so far is 'Welcome to the Front', which I greatly enjoyed, noisy, imaginative and hectic, from the moment you start and your quiet trip to a standby position goes from bad to worse. I liked the way we ended up on the flank of the enemy attack, although there was very little time to find good fire positions. I'd have liked is a little more in mission brief or intro about who I was and where I fitted in -  but the briefing has a good military feel; tho it's fairly low-key and casual, this in line with the tactical situation and fits in well with the mission as it develops. 

I also had very little time to practice any fire and movement. By the time I had finished my mad dash to get out of the village and away from under that deluge from Stalin's 'God of War' I had only a short time to get the platoon into line (to move with the Panzer IVs towards the valley) when the Red armour arrived.  I was drawn into a shooting match with little time to look out for the others. I only managed send my two platoon-mates forward once before the fun began...



...and then one (or both) of them dashed down into the valley in a charge that made the Light Brigade look positively timid. I did manage to call them back and if I had avoided the temptation to go to the gunsight and taken more care of running my platoon, I think I could have kept them under control reasonably well. As it was they got no kills, in between rushing at the enemy then coming back when I called them with their tails between their legs.

I think we might have done better as a platoon if I had done a better job as platoon leader. But this mission develops so fast, that it is very hard to resist the temptation to jump to the gun, start shooting and forget about the others. Fun playing the mission hero as Lockie describes it but I think my platoon might have been more successful, had I concentrated on getting it into a good fire position rather than doing my own thing.

The only thing I didn't like about the mission - apart from the fact that PzIIIs against T-34s and KV-1s makes me very nervous - was getting 'Mission failed', I think because a pair of T-60s and a few infantry got past us to the village we came from (flattened and burning, by that time) and destroyed some rear echelon people in trucks.



All my Panzer IIIs survived and I got a KV (and we did a little bit of other damage) so that's a win in my book, even if the regimental commander doesn't think so



I think a good way to end missions is not with the curtain being brought down suddenly - especially if you cannot know what happened, that you could have tried to prevent - but a message from HQ, like on quitting M1TP2 where you are told 'FRAGO, all callsigns break off and return to base/start positions'. Being told by the CO on the virtual radio that the mission has been aborted is better than being told it's been failed. I would make it impossible to fail a mission so you would NEVER get the awful, gamey 'Mission failed' message, but would time it out eventually, allowing lots of time (at the point where playing on in 99% of cases will have become pointless or boring or both), and then play the 'Mission aborted' radio message.

Overall, despite the mission developing a bit too fast for any 'clever' platoon tactics, I did manage a little bit of command and control in between the hectic periods, and I think if I had spent a bit more time on that and less on shooting, we might actually have done a little better. So I am encouraged to continue to try in missions to play more of the platoon leader role, even though as in real life there will be times when you have to do your own thing.

[Kyth]

Thanks for playing,
Yes I guess there are a couple of things I would do differently now.   

If you wish to try again, you'll need to send your tanks to the firing line area with the Panzer IV's (the other platoon moves there automatically), then set them to 'Defend'. Then, feel free to shoot at any suitable targets   

[33lima]

Thanks for playing,
Yes I guess there are a couple of things I would do differently now.   

If you wish to try again, you'll need to send your tanks to the firing line area with the Panzer IV's (the other platoon moves there automatically), then set them to 'Defend'. Then, feel free to shoot at any suitable targets   

We met the Panzer IVs going downhill and I decided to do the same. I did consider ordering a move to defensive positions but I was afraid my platoon would do something a bit erratic. So I ordered bounding overwatch down into the valley and got The Charge of the Light Brigade instead. By the time I realised that was happening, I was involved in a firefight and pretty well distracted from my command responsibilities. Not ALL my fault; the men seem to get a little excitable when they see the enemy.

In SF, the AI seems more inclined to act independently, whereas in other tank sims, AI platoon-mates seems more obedient, perhaps to the point of being robotic. Anyway now that Lockie has produced a training map, I can start experimenting, to find out what works best in different situations, without being shot at while I'm doing it.

[Kyth]

I'd suggest going slow, for example, playing at lower difficulty levels 1-3, to get your 'sea-legs' first. Usually the balance of forces is more favourable at these levels.

Then, move on to the higher levels of difficulty when everything comes naturally.

[Kyth]

There's one more tip which slipped my mind, and it's a rather subtle one:

As a commander, when you assign targets for your gunner, your tank wingmen will also try to find and shoot them.

The red target marker and nearby targets will have red dots, if they're visible to the gunner.

And lastly, the 'F & Left-Click' command is also available when you're in the gunner's position. 

[Kyth]

If you still have a phobia about the abominable KV-1's, the following recounting should put you slightly more at ease: 

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=10624.msg26684#msg26684

[33lima]

If you still have a phobia about the abominable KV-1's, the following recounting should put you slightly more at ease: 

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=10624.msg26684#msg26684

Killing KVs in a 38(t)? Let me guess...either (i) Kapula is a fantastic shot and put a 37mm round down their barrels just in time to stop their 76mm rounds from converting his tank to Swiss Cheese (ii) or there is a special mod which enables your crew to bail out and stalk KVs with Molotov cocktails

Reading on, I see he damaged their tracks then knocked out their guns...I would have thought that the only way that a Panzer 38(t) could damage the tracks of a KV is by getting jammed in them when the KV is driving over it, to conserve ammo 

[33lima]

Well I'm certainly having some fun and learning a little on driver training on lockie's new training area map, especially if I bring the others along. When I order close formation, they can be quite zealous.





In general they maintain column formation fairly well:



And further experiments with fire and movement using the 'they move first' method are working quite well:



Lockie placed a few 'live enemies' in some of the trenches and - as I've seen in other missions - my platoon-mates will readily break formation to attack any enemies they spot. And maybe charge at them, too.

They say nothing on the radio - the only warning I get is hearing them opening fire. If I then look at the map, I can see what they are shooting at is now marked on it.

It's a bit like M1 Tank Platoon 2 and its magic IVIS screen - no warning from the others, they just start shooting and you see the red dots (in M1TPS's case) now marked on the IVIS screen - if you look at it. The big difference is that the M1TP2 'wingmen' stayed with you while firing, whereas in SF, the boys break formation and/or attack.

I wish there was a way of triggering a radio 'contact report' when this happens. Panzer Elite and Steel Beasts both provide this, in both cases with a generic audio 'radio message' with a text display which gives more details, including the grid ref in SB, IIRC. Just hearing them shoot is not a good way to find out, especially as there may be other firing going on nearby. WW2 tank radios weren't THAT unreliable.

The good part is that (with 'Always obey orders' selected in the main sim options) my platoon mates will break off and return to formation if I order 'Do as I do'. Unless perhaps there is some desperate and pressing danger, in which case, fine.

So it seems to me that the SF AI platoon-mates are more aggressive and more independently-minded (or less robotic) than in some other tanksims.

But as platoon leader, it also seems that you can (to use British Army terminology for this sort of thing) step in and 'regain control' if your platoon becomes 'disorganised'.

I think I quite like this, because it's an issue in real life too. SF is making you 'earn your pay' as an officer, with subordinates over whose actions you must exercise a degree of vigilance and control, and not just assume they will behave like...well, like AI 'bots' in a computer game.

I'm finding that driving around in a training area in a decent tank, exploring things without an imminent life-or-virtual-death battle about to start (or already started) I'm learning things about tanking in SF that I would have struggled to pick up 'in action', as fast or at all. Some of it I can hopefully apply when back on SF's 'two-way firing range'.

When I have spent more time finding my around the map I'll start trying to put together a new Tiger driving mission, as a first step in a possible 'training program'.