Need some Su-2 (M-88b) experts!

[Flashburn]

I am once again working on this plane model.  No idea what I will do with if it EVER gets done.  Started on it like 2 years ago and just about everything that can go wrong while modeling a plane on a computer did in fact go wrong.  But its SO dang close to complete seems stupid to let it just sit there doing nothing. 

The model is not perfect and has some rocky areas, but over all I think its a decent low poly model.  Right now I am dumping the 1024 X 2048 texture size and going with a full 2048 X 2048 (same as tanks in GTOS).  this means I am pretty much loosing and throwing out the old vary far along normal maps I had done for this thing.  But hoping to be able to add in more details into the textures. 

But in last summers computer melt down I lost all my links and reference info.  And I can not seem to find what I am after now.  Every damned search I do gives me stupid war thunder stuff....LOL. 

What I have now is not good for reference.  Need everything from photos of air craft that show the right panel  details for the fuselage, to tire tread patterns.  Also no idea about proper squadron info for areas in GTOS or maybe even Mius.  Although for mid 1943 I have no idea how many of these things where still fighting.  Maybe none in the area. 

If anyone can help PLEASE post stuff!!!   


Once I complete the new unwrapping job I'll post a few screens..... 

If this thing ever gets done I want to do a FLak 30 or 38 next.     Have all the junk I need to make a good one. 

[Flashburn]

Oh also have HUGE conflicting info on armaments.  Some say only 4 wing 7.62.  Some say 2.  Some say 20mm cannon in nose and 2 -4 7.62 guns in wing.  I have no idea how many bombs fit in the little bomb bay.   UGH. 

But for rear guns only planning on the turret with the 1 7.62 mg and ignoring the bottom often not fit gun. 

[Flashburn]

If you have seen the older version with 60 percent complete normal maps this will look pretty plain.  Well it is!  But the end result I hope will be a better looking plane....if I ever finish this stupid thing.  Since doing this I threw out 20 hours of work.. Redoing what was done however should take less than 1/2 that as I know what exactly to do this go around.  Just everything else..  Any how.  Everything is the unwrapping except the canopy.  Its just over 9000 triangles with the uber basic landing gear (thats primarily for the encyclopedia so I really don't care if does not look to uber.  Although I want to make landing gear and landing gear doors able to be shot off.  In which case some ugly low polygon wheels will fall off this thing.   

Just have to finish unwrapping the canopy...AGAIN... UGH did something stupid at some point and screwed the old unwrapping up  .  Fix a few yucks.  Then remake the normal maps of all those billions of rivets again.  Hopefully i can recycle a few things like panels andd that sort of stuff from my old normal map template.  Gawd I hope so.... Oh and need to add the mount for the rear gun there.  Something i have no good photos of.  And at least the pilots bombing sight.  But not going over 9500 triangles.  Oh and I need to make the external bomb racks on the wings.  I did make a basic little bomb bay that this plane has.  Looks like it can only carry 2 decent sized bombs internally. But I don't have any freaking idea what goes in there.  LOL. 

[FB_AGA]

I'll be able to help with information in a few days. Right now I can say that this plane is perfect for Shilovo (I am not sure IL-2 were there in July'42), also it would be suitable for every polygon in 1941 (Taranovka'41 , Mius'41 and etc). Il 2, at least around current and possible maps was quite rare in 1941 and in the first part of 42. Main workhorse as light bomber was Su-2 and I-153 as low-flying attack aircraft.

All Flaks are very welcom too ) They were used alot by Germans as tow and self-proppeled guns. I can't imagine Mius'43 with out it , also Shilovo, Rakitnoe and Krasnaya Polyana.

[Flashburn]

I really do think lite flak guns would add a little something.  Since they of course can shoot at air craft, but also are useful to shoot at stuff on the ground. 

[Flashburn]

One thing I dont get about the su2 is that its loss rate per sortie where a far bit less than many other ground attack and lite bomber air craft.  Notably the IL-2 which would last on average about 20 missions before being shot down.  The SU-2 was closer to 35 missions until shot down. Yet we are left to believe that these things where falling out of the sky at a much higher rate.  In fact it looks  like the SU2's loss rates where closer to the PE-2. 

Now if they had stuck the 2100 horse power engine it was suppose to have in it might have been quite the useful early war lite bomber.  I guess on paper it looks like the SU-2 and Sukhoi just was not popular with Stalin?  The never made su6 looked like a solid little plane at least.  I wonder if it had more to due with the factories getting over run and politics than anything else.     

[Flanker15]

It looks like you're making the original Su-2 model with the 4 mgs and the ball turret which was effectivly a BB-1 with a better engine.
It had room for 4 100kg bombs in the bomb bay and another 1 on each wing but that would overload it so 4 was the norm.
The 2 mg model was a 41 update of it with the oil system rearranged and a cheaper turret.
The 20mm model doesn't seem to exist outside of a possible prototype thing.

The il-2 was probably chosen over it for its cannons, armour and larger payload which meant it could inflict more damage but it also would have to fly lower to use its guns so it got shot down more?

[Flashburn]

I am debating about also doing the su2 with M82 engine (sometime known as SU4).  But bulk of production was this guy so...

Well i dont think you would really want to try and bomb tanks with this sort of thing.  But supply areas or bunched up targets this thing to me seems like a decent choice.

As of this moment I am vary curious is this was used as an observation and sometime lite attack aircraft after 43.  It did have a decent radio and the camera bit..not on this one but could be certainly has some use even if no longer a front line bomber. 

I do want to point out that the SU2 did have 9mm of armor plate for the pilot.     Dont know what the IL2 had but I am guessing about the same.  But ya, the cannons of the il2 are more in line with attacking armor.  BUT that thing was so slow. 

[Flashburn]

I have floated the idea of also making an FW189 Owl.  In fact that was the first plan I had.  That is using one 2048 x 2048 texture for both planes.  Its just such a weird little thing. Idea was sort of parallel to the po-2.

But as of NOW... I want to get back to making some ground vehicles.  Low poly air craft are an interesting challenge but not my main interest.  Vehicles like tanks are actually way easier to make IMO.  But I get tripped up trying to make em perfect.  Less picky with air craft and that's why I have made a few. 

But a better JU87 with those crazy cannon pods certainly sounds fun.  LOL. 

DOH 87 not 88 

[Flanker15]

The Su4 was never built afaik. 
Also the Su2 I don't think was still in normal service by late 43,  I guess on the Russian side the only fitting plane we don't have is a Pe-2 variant or a fighter.
But as you said this is a ground game and ground units are more fun! 
You were talking about some light AA guns before, they'd defiantly fit in and add to the game.  The Mius line probably had many 2cm and 3.7cm aa guns that could be used against ground and air.

[Flashburn]

The way I see it there are 2 weaknesses in GTOS.  REcon aspect which is pretty basic but an extremely important part of modern warfare and tactical air stuff.  We don't have any AAA assets of the battlefield tactical sort.  Both sides had em, not in this Graviteam game.  They are in good old K42 however.  Now no 88 or 85mm gun are going to be engaging low flying air craft.  Its way to short range for those big fat things.  And light automatic cannons are certainly duel use in the close range.  AS a mod dude making more tanks when that is SO covered is not plugging a hole.  With Mius and towable guns it does open somethings up that would be pretty useless in GTOS......

[FB_AGA]

If we talk about Mius'43 or the other polygon of the Southern Front from may'43 to feb'44 as bombers there were PE-2 and A-20 Boston, so no SU-2. However, there were 8th separate air recon regiment which also did bomb runs, as I remember it had PE-2 in 43 - 44, but in June-July 42 it had only SU-2.

[Flashburn]

AHHHH the Boston/Havoc.  Now we are talking!   

Have a soft spot for that thing.  A pretty decent early war plane that ended getting used for the whole thing by everyone.  That I maybe might have to do.....  PE-2's are pretty nifty too.  But A20 beats it for me...

Could you find out what sort they where using in the Mius time frame.  Maybe do that one someday. 

[Flashburn]

PLease tell me the Red Air Force was using early model A20G models with the 20mm cannons in the ground attack role.   

[FB_AGA]

PLease tell me the Red Air Force was using early model A20G models with the 20mm cannons in the ground attack role.   

It's possible.  Although I can't say what Bostons were exactly on the Mius-Front, G-1 started to come to USSR in the summer or spring 43. In october 43 there were already G-20.

Anyway it was either A-20B or G-1. But, it was very seldom used as ground-attack plane (I mean to fight tanks, frontline positions). For that role we had IL-2 as A-20 was very vulnarable to AA fire (at least Red Air Forсe Command thought so). A-20 was premilary used as bomber or recon plane most of all. At the same time in the Mius July'43 operation PE-2 & A-20 was very widely used to attack german front positions, tanks and arty battareis, but they bombed them from 3000 meters.


FW-189 also a fine plane for the game. I see them in many front line troops reports, more often than Ju-87 in current game polygons. They were very annoing for the red troops cause of bomb attacks, something like U-2 but as a day bomber.

About Ju-87G-1 ... seems I saw somewhere a reliable report about their actions either in the Mius July'43 or Charkov Aug'43 (Taranovka, Sokolovo and so on).

[FB_AGA]

Sorry, no A-20G-1 on the Mius.    Not a single 20mm was fired by the 270th Bomber Division, only brownings in the July and August 43.

[Flashburn]

ON the Fw189 that is kind of what I thought might be the case.  Those things where right behind the lines just like the PO-2.  Not a vary effective ground attack platform, but should be vary easy to harass ground units.

Only the A20 G model would be remotely effective as a direct ground attack air plane.  The rest where all set up as light horizontal bombers.  But all the early mark 4 20mm cannon ones made went the USSR.    I would think that thing would make a totally crappy horizontal bomber as no bombardier.  So likely if you see a A20 G in a unit in 1943 it most likely these vary few in number early first run 20mm sorts and not the ones with 6 - 8 .50 caliber machine guns.  Could be where they went, OH this thing is not as survivable as IL-2.    Since what the this mark of a20 had over an il2 was speed.  Probably 150 km faster.  But ya, armor, no not really.  

Assuming an a20 where to be made by me AND for GTOS/Mius for what the game is, it needs to be the direct ground attack version.  The light bomber version for the reasons you stated are not suitable.  And since the only version with the 4 vary large 20mm cannons where sticking out of the nose where all on the eastern front I vote for that as you will never see that in other games have the A20.  



AND...does anyone have a good pic of the front of the SU 2 hopefully without the prop fit?   Need to find something where the engine is sort of visible from the front.  

[Flashburn]

Sorry, no A-20G-1 on the Mius.    Not a single 20mm was fired by the 270th Bomber Division, only brownings in the July and August 43.

NOOOOOOO   Its the coolest one.  BOOHOO

[Flashburn]

Well the SU2, despite me looking up way to much info on the A20 G model, now has completed redone UVW unwrapping.   

Now if I can actually find a good photo of the pilots bomb sight thing and how the heck the rear MG is mounted in its turret.  Then off to start in on the new textures.  OOOOOHHHH exciting..

[FB_AGA]

Some SU-2 photos could be found here (3 pages):
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_01.htm
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_02.htm
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_03.htm

For instance bomb loads:
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/10.jpg
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/19.jpg