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Author Topic: Was thinking about what is missing in GTOS.  (Read 15156 times)
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Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
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« on: January 15, 2015, 04:46:15 PM »

With Mius bringing us into mid 1943 (YAY), we have never really had a summer, fall or winter of 41.  Now granted.... it was a total mess in the early years.  But cant help thinking just how neato a field of 38T's would be. I  mean we have all those really nice T26 models.  But no campaign to go with them.  Perhaps even a spring 42 type of deal.  Somewhere in the early years the Red Army must have done well enough to support a decent historical fight.  Well clearly they did in front of Moscow among other places. But I am certainly no expert on ww2 eastern front.  Well also eye balling things like the BT tanks made for Nomonhan here. 


Thoughts?

It would be fun to order a platoon of t34 1940's threw a field full of panzer 2's and 38t's.  Just saying. 
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 05:30:02 PM »

Heh, it's not an easy question to answer.

Right now I can say only two things...and a half Roll Eyes :

1) It's not very clear with the current Mius map for the autumn/winter 41. But, by the Soviet sources a tank brigade (in fact a Kampfgruppe /I don't remember what it is in english  Cheesy/ from two tank brigades and a NKVD battalion) had been fighting there (or close) for three - seven days. I haven't find any evidence from the German side yet, though. That brigade had a lot of T-26 and a bunch of KV & T-34. The main problem right know - it is a lack of the soviet 37-mm AA gun. It was the main AT gun of that period for that area (there were no 45mm AT guns).

2) Somewhere between Sokolovo and Taranovka in the october 41 was another Tank brigade. It had KV-1, T-34 and BT (all of types: 2, 5, 7, 7m). The thing that it had just a small clash with Wehrmacht 125 ID's recon as it was retreating while an Infantry Regiment was defending Taranovka. Here we need the french 47mm AT gun for Germans.

2.5) About a Pz38T I can't say anything linked to the game current or possible (as far as I know) polygons.


« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 05:39:02 PM by FB_AGA » Logged
FB_AGA
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 05:33:34 PM »

Spring 42 could be on the Taranovka map too. FLAK 88 and Flak 30/38 (2cm) are very welcom. However, it should be a big Taranovka map to suit 41, 42, and a lot of things in 43  Smiley
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 05:56:12 PM »

Still sitting on my butt about making a flak 30/38.  Still have everything I need.  It just hard to make the commitment.  IE... sticking in GTOS makes not a heck of a lot of sense.  Same with my SU2 at this point.  But waiting for Mius is getting boring.   Wink  I think the time to "just do it" might be here.  Although my projects for GTOS seem to be half baked pipe dreams.  GRRRR.... 

Well also missing the Stug D's. 

I have looked for plans and data for 37mm anti air gun.  But nothing is good enough to do it right.  Unless by some miracle one got shipped over this way to a museum that is local.  But only have seen things like PO2 and mig 3's around here  (you can thank Paul Allen for that).  Oh and some local big pockets collector with a T34-85 (which might be Paul Allen again for all I know). 

What about a pz35?   Any of those ugly things fit? 

I know there where limited offensives in spring 42?  Any T26's involved in those?  And happen to be on any map?  The ideal would be something that was more or less an even match.  better still a small limited victory for the Red Army.  Something that would force the player to have to use something crappy like a t26 reasonably smartly.  Or BT for that matter. 
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 06:11:34 PM »

Still sitting on my butt about making a flak 30/38.  Still have everything I need.  It just hard to make the commitment.  IE... sticking in GTOS makes not a heck of a lot of sense.  Same with my SU2 at this point.  But waiting for Mius is getting boring.   Wink  I think the time to "just do it" might be here.  Although my projects for GTOS seem to be half baked pipe dreams.  GRRRR....  
2cm Flak is perfect for the Mius operations, but the thing on which Graviteam don't have resources. I bet it will be added into the game immediately as it will be ready.
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 07:15:12 PM »

Good lord.  it just occurred to me.  What ever happened to the 37mm AA gun from Steel Fury?  Likely would need a big ole face lift.  Or is there some legal reason why that never made it over to K43 or GTOS?  Same thing with the 88mm 
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 07:47:53 PM »

What about a pz35?   Any of those ugly things fit?  

Definetely not Smiley Only the 6th PzD had them till the end of 41. So, no Pz35 southern Moscow.

I know there where limited offensives in spring 42?  Any T26's involved in those?  And happen to be on any map?  The ideal would be something that was more or less an even match.  better still a small limited victory for the Red Army.  Something that would force the player to have to use something crappy like a t26 reasonably smartly.  Or BT for that matter.  

All these things need a new polygon. If it is possible to create one it is not that hard to find a battle where all interesting units acted.

Good lord.  it just occurred to me.  What ever happened to the 37mm AA gun from Steel Fury?  Likely would need a big ole face lift.  Or is there some legal reason why that never made it over to K43 or GTOS?  Same thing with the 88mm  

And F-22USV  Wink I don't know the story behind the Devs decision but at least the quality of these pieces is too low for GTOS.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 07:52:51 PM by FB_AGA » Logged
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 08:10:56 PM »


[/quote]

And F-22USV  Wink I don't know the story behind the Devs decision but at least the quality of these pieces is too low for GTOS.
[/quote]


Well yes.  But taking the highest LOD and reworking it to bring it up to current specs removes maybe 20 percent of the work.  You end up throwing out all lower LODS and textures.  But assuming the dimensions of the model are right you can now work much more easily with photos. not the ideal situation.  But working with nothing but photos will end up with an off model most of the time.  For me the longest single part of making a model is getting its form right.  now if working straight from drawing or blueprints its not bad at all.  But I dont have those.  Next best thing would be a low poly model with right dimensions but crappy low poly form.  That would allow me to eye ball everything from photos and end up right darn close to right.  With something like the 37mm aa gun its a simple form but all the angles of pieces with crappy photos aint going to cut it.  It would fool the average person, but would never pass the guys that know this weapon.  As a weapon nut that hates that in games.. Well I hate that when you are familiar with a weapon or piece of gear and someone just pumped out some ugly model that is all wrong. 
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Tractorist
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 07:58:17 PM »

F-22-USV-Br  Wink
Spoiler:
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2015, 08:45:41 PM »

hmm yes...nice



Still a LONG way to go my little project.   Tongue
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wodin
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 02:15:15 PM »

Personally my only gripe with the game\sim is the weakness of infantry versus armour in close combat. Apart from that I feel there is nothing actually missing.
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 05:38:14 PM »

Personally my only gripe with the game\sim is the weakness of infantry versus armour in close combat. Apart from that I feel there is nothing actually missing.

I am totally fine with this on the whole.  Its ww2.  And the early part before infantry had more effective anti tank weapons.  Tanks could pop up and drive threw infantry formations mowing everyone down.  But I do feel that low and mid level riflemen fire their rifles to slow.  Guys with mosins and kar98k's really should be able to fire faster.  Let alone the SVT40.  When at max experience they in fact do fire IMO at the rate they should be at 50 percent.  Also touching on both here.  In recent patches the German rifle grenade for Kar98k is most certainly firing faster and often.    In fact it seems to fire faster using its grenades than with firing rifle rounds.   Tongue  A light tank like a t26, t60 and maybe a t70 can get totally screwed up with a German soldier and his Kar98k with rifle grenade launcher.  Well at least till he runs out of anti armor rounds.   Wink  But I do think the Germans should have a few more AT types of grenades.  Thinking mainly the HH3.  Usually 1 and with the platoon leader.  Which makes no damned sense IMO.  If it where me, I would give 1 soldier 2 of them in pretty much every squad.  and take it away from the LTs. and Captains. Or at least just give it to squad leaders (Sgt's).   However, historically these things probably where with specialized troops more than not.  But seems crazy that some would not be acquired by regular line troops if they thought armor was in their area.  You know, bartered, stolen, or requested.  In the end however, the German pioneers most certainly can deal with tanks.  Which is historically legit.  Perhaps maybe a random factor for German infantry to get some or more HH3's or satchels based on time frame.  Beyond the officers getting one (HH3).  Now the Red Army troops....they are fine as is.  Of course they HAD to be considering the nature of the German war machine. 

On the whole I greatly enjoy killing armor with infantry.  I have gotten really good at it. Oh....and  anti tank rifles should IMO fire a bit faster too.  The semi auto one in particular.  The single shot ones should be slow to use.  But not as slow as now. 
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 08:17:25 PM »

But I do feel that low and mid level riflemen fire their rifles to slow.  Guys with mosins and kar98k's really should be able to fire faster.  Let alone the SVT40.  When at max experience they in fact do fire IMO at the rate they should be at 50 percent. 

In the game config the fire rate is set to 15 shoots per minute (for Mosin and Kar). According to 1920 - 40's manuals the real fire rate was from 10 to 15. So, if to change the rate of fire than only to reduce it  Grin If I did the mod I would set 12 for rifles and 15 for carabines  Smiley


In recent patches the German rifle grenade for Kar98k is most certainly firing faster and often.   

In the config it is equal to ordinary bullets, there is no difference. However, it could be that a rifleman spend less time for aiming firing a rifle mortar.

But I do think the Germans should have a few more AT types of grenades.  Thinking mainly the HH3....However, historically these things probably where with specialized troops more than not.

Right, these things in the game should be improved, may be in the Mius. The main drawback that germans don't have incendiary bottles at all, while they should have not that less than soviets.
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 08:49:06 PM »

But for that config entry that is the MAx with 100 percent experienced troops.  At 50 percent its quite slow.  And lets not even go with really low experience.  15 per minute from an experienced rifleman is pretty legit.  2 seconds per shot with 3 reloads.  The loading of the stripper clips will be what takes so damned long.  So the rate of fire should probably look more like 30 rpm MAX experience and morale.  With 15-20 second reloads of the rifle with stripper clips.  Snipers closer to 40 seconds due to loading rounds 1 by 1. 

I can not remember if reloading time of the magazine is modeled for bolt action rifles. 
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FB_AGA
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 10:02:36 PM »

But for that config entry that is the MAx with 100 percent experienced troops.
At 50 percent its quite slow.  And lets not even go with really low experience.  15 per minute from an experienced rifleman is pretty legit.  2 seconds per shot with 3 reloads.  The loading of the stripper clips will be what takes so damned long.  So the rate of fire should probably look more like 30 rpm MAX experience and morale.  With 15-20 second reloads of the rifle with stripper clips.  Snipers closer to 40 seconds due to loading rounds 1 by 1.  

It's weapons' effective rate of fire, so how many bullets can an average rifleman fire in a minute from the rifle of the firts quality in good conditions.

All bullets were in clips except scoped rifles where they were one by one. 60 sec. deduct 5 sec. per every reloading  => 3 - 5 sec. on each shoot. In the winter it could be slower cause of mittens.

It was roughly the same in the game about a year ago. I checked it with a stopwatch.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:05:17 PM by FB_AGA » Logged
wodin
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 01:34:48 AM »

Flashburn, I'm still getting situations (alot) where one or two tanks will wipe out two or more platoons of Inf at close range in a forest. Where really  at such close distance in real life the Inf could have dropped grenades into hatches or pioneers would have been able to if not destroy it at least immobilise it with teller mines.

In the book Into Oblivion several times the pioneers where called in to take out stray tanks that had got behind the lines using magnetic mines. Also no way would have somewhere like Cholm held out if Tanks where so invincible up close with Infantry.

Just disheartening when you see some tanks and you know now your just going to watch them wipe out all your force on map and there is nothing you can do about it so you sit there for maybe an hour or more as they get mown down whilst at times being right next to the enemy tanks.

Just some hope that you may be able to take some out and even be able to make them retreat. Tankers would always back away from forests or urban areas if they didn't have Inf support. In the game they aren't bothered as Inf are just flies:)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 01:38:58 AM by wodin » Logged
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Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2015, 02:28:29 AM »

I rarely have this issue with 1 or 2 tanks.  But am extremely careful how I place and use my infantry.  I always check what they have for anti tank weapons.  Usually a complex ambush.  Something to attract attention while something else gets on the flanks.  With heavier armor like panzer 4's, tiger's, stugs, T34's, Kv1's it just is not likely to defeat them with regular infantry units.  It can be done but you loose a zillion guys.  That is where the German pioneers shine.  Heavy pioneers with lots of satchel charges and HH3's can deal with the t34.  THe KV1 is more problematic.  Killing the KV1 or Tiger with satchel charges is vary unlikely.  Although never had Soviet engineers when tigers are around.  So never tried.   

You want your bush whacking tank killing infantry to remain unseen until they get off their nade spam.  Or distract the tank somewhere else and flat rush the thing.   To help, set ambush, no targeting infantry and in low ground near where a tank will have to pass.  If your infantry open up on something while the tank is out side of range of hand grenades, they are totally hosed.  So they take a pot shot at an infantry guy or even an exposed tank crewman, then you gave up surprise.  The tanks will blow those guys up.

But the best thing is to engage the tank with another tank, tank destroyer, or anti tank gun.  And having your bush whacking tank spamming infantry to open up that sort of fight is the way to go.  They might kill the thing, damage it, or at least suppress the crap out of it.  Then your anti tank gun, tank, or tank destroyer can kill it much more easy. 


And how on earth do you climb up on a tank and open up a hatch to throw a hand grenade in?  Its battle locked.  Usually a piece of 1/4  inch steel bolt to prevent that from happening.  You have to bring a crow bar and need quite awhile to get to that point.  Only a disabled tank with no friendlies around could that have any chance of success.   Now climbing up on a disabled tank and setting off 5kg of explosive on a hatch will do the trick, maybe....  The hard part is getting on the tank in the first place.  Many ww2 tanks had pistol ports for just this sort of event.

But we are missing infantry smoke grenades.  this would help with close assault of armor with infantry.  But this is always a bloody affair.  And tanks are rarely alone. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2015, 05:35:32 AM »

I agree that tanks can kill entrenched infantry (and infantry hiding at night in houses and in woods) too easily.
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2015, 04:53:49 PM »





And how on earth do you climb up on a tank and open up a hatch to throw a hand grenade in?  Its battle locked.  Usually a piece of 1/4  inch steel bolt to prevent that from happening.  You have to bring a crow bar and need quite awhile to get to that point.   

Flashburn, can tank hatches actually be forced open with a crowbar?  Seems kind of .... inadequate to me.  Sort of like putting a screen door on a castle.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2015, 05:10:48 PM »





And how on earth do you climb up on a tank and open up a hatch to throw a hand grenade in?  Its battle locked.  Usually a piece of 1/4  inch steel bolt to prevent that from happening.  You have to bring a crow bar and need quite awhile to get to that point.   

Flashburn, can tank hatches actually be forced open with a crowbar?  Seems kind of .... inadequate to me.  Sort of like putting a screen door on a castle.

Its possible.  Crowbar on seam and pound with a sledge hammer.  If it can get in there it might be possible to pry open.   But where talking like an hour of banging around.  If you have live crewman in there they are not going to sit there waiting for the hatch to get popped.  Depress gun, load HE or any frag round and keep shooting the ground till they go away.    You don't want to make it completely impossible to get in generally.  If you need to get in to get your wounded out but can not that also defeats the purpose.   Just need to make it hard enough that someone does not pull the Hollywood jump on tank and chuck a frag in there.   BUT.. jumping on the tank and smearing oil or mud all over the vision devices is surprisingly effective.  Tongue
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