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Author Topic: Steel Armor returns :)  (Read 176482 times)
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andrey12345
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« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2015, 05:21:58 PM »

Can you tell us what bugs are associated with having the 3D markers in the game version prior to the remastered one?
This extra element (ie naturally cheat) in 3D that interferes with the game. Not need at all.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Tanker
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« Reply #161 on: March 07, 2015, 06:49:03 PM »

Can you tell us what bugs are associated with having the 3D markers in the game version prior to the remastered one?
This extra element (ie naturally cheat) in 3D that interferes with the game. Not need at all.

So it's really a philosophical objection and not one based on bugs.  In your view, the game should be more hardcore and the player should not even have the option to make it less hardcore.

Why not eliminate external camera view then?  Isn't that a "cheat" also?  Also, how can you magically transport yourself from tank to tank in the platoon during the battle?  Seems like that could be seen as a "cheat" also.  Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not advocating eliminating these features.  I'm saying they make the simulation more enjoyable.  They are not any more realistic than 3D markers. 

I'm not aware of the external camera view or the ability of transferring between tanks or 3D markers causing any bugs or design problems and your only objection to the 3D markers seems to be a realism one.  If they don't cause bugs why not leave them as an option and let me decide how realistic I want the sim to play?
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Krabb
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« Reply #162 on: March 07, 2015, 06:54:03 PM »

Use the compass, Luke! Cheesy
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Tanker
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« Reply #163 on: March 07, 2015, 06:56:11 PM »

Normally developers develop games for players, not for themselves.

I underlined keywords.
Even you say - develop games, not options.

Games are made up of all sorts of elements, options being one of them.  If options are added or deleted the game changes.  It is not logical to say the two are unrelated.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #164 on: March 07, 2015, 07:04:38 PM »

Games are made up of all sorts of elements, options being one of them.  
No. Options, this is the place where the game designer does not know how best to proceed, and provides a solve to the player. Sometimes this is justified, for example settings are dependent on the player's hardware. Sometimes not, as in the case with markers.

In any case, if the problem can be solved without player - need to decide without him.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Tanker
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« Reply #165 on: March 07, 2015, 07:11:33 PM »

Use the compass, Luke! Cheesy

Luke, I am your father. Grin

Cute, but it really does not answer the question that if 3D markers are not any more unrealistic than flying between tanks and flying around your tank in external view and there are no bugs (that anyone has detailed) associated with them, why eliminate them?  Many may disagree with this but to me eliminating a feature like that subtracts from the value of the game for me, unnecessarily so.

In real life I would have more options than the compass and map.  I could radio the infantry units to send up a flare or other signal to verify their location.  I could ask allied tanks or even my own platoon tanks to turn their lights on to verify identity before shooting at unknown contacts.  None of this is available in the game, so 3D markers is a good substitute.

If we're talking about realism, we have access to a constantly updated, moving map with all visible units depicted in the 1970s and 1980s.    Realism can't be an argument for eliminating 3D markers.
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Tanker
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« Reply #166 on: March 07, 2015, 07:15:57 PM »

Games are made up of all sorts of elements, options being one of them.  
No. Options, this is the place where the game designer does not know how best to proceed, and provides a solve to the player. Sometimes this is justified, for example settings are dependent on the player's hardware. Sometimes not, as in the case with markers.

In any case, if the problem can be solved without player - need to decide without him.

I'm really trying to understand your point of view.  You've told me that markers are not justified.  I believe your reason for saying that is they are unrealistic, correct?
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Fritz
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« Reply #167 on: March 07, 2015, 07:20:34 PM »

In any case, if the problem can be solved without player - need to decide without him.

This is army son...   Grin
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andrey12345
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« Reply #168 on: March 07, 2015, 07:32:47 PM »

You've told me that markers are not justified.  I believe your reason for saying that is they are unrealistic, correct?
Of course not realisitc, do you see flying red/green markers around in the world?  Grin
But most of the parts in games is unrealistic (and in our too), this is not a problem.
Problem is a redundant element which spoils the game.

Typical example, someone like Tanker, writes:
"Night map, M-60, exterior is visible through the turret side in cockpit view." and post screenshot with markers
http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11818.0

Now, that's exactly what I'm talking about, and you, though resisted, but subconsciously understand that it is all unnecessary in the game.  
Because it looks like a bug! Grin
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 07:35:10 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Thomasew
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« Reply #169 on: March 07, 2015, 07:37:39 PM »

What 3D markers are we talking about ?

Although, .. it would seem like Graviteam are trying to make the game inaccessible to newcomers.

.. perhaps not the wisest idea, .. given that many already consider the game extremely difficult, .. especially given the UI.

I believe that realism options should be selectable or de-selectable, .. and let the player advance at his own pace.

Is this option 4.15 you are talking about?, .. as I notice that it no longer works.


Cheers
Tom
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 07:39:58 PM by Thomasew » Logged

He Who Will Not Risk Cannot Win
Tanker
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« Reply #170 on: March 07, 2015, 07:47:24 PM »

You've told me that markers are not justified.  I believe your reason for saying that is they are unrealistic, correct?
Of course not realisitc, do you see flying red/green markers around in the world?  Grin
But most of the parts in games is unrealistic (and in our too), this is not a problem.
Problem is a redundant element which spoils the game.

Typical example, someone like Tanker, writes:
"Night map, M-60, exterior is visible through the turret side in cockpit view." and post screenshot with markers
http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11818.0

Now, that's exactly what I'm talking about, and you, though resisted, but subconsciously understand that it is all unnecessary in the game.  
Because it looks like a bug! Grin

I understand your point of view now.  But I don't reach the same conclusion.  If you explain that feature in a comprehensive manual you solve the problem of them appearing as a bug.  I mentioned it because I was unaware of how markers work in relation to the tank interior.  Now that I understand how they work I accept the fact that if I have them on I will see them through the turret.  Now I can decide if I wish to turn them off and be more realistic or leave them on and use the benefit.  But that's the key.  I get to decide.  It's a win/win situation.  I don't understand how GT loses by leaving this feature in.  Are you worried that people will see it and think the game is buggy?  As I said, an updated manual will take care of that.
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Tanker
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BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #171 on: March 07, 2015, 07:50:14 PM »

What 3D markers are we talking about ?

Although, .. it would seem like Graviteam are trying to make the game inaccessible to newcomers.

.. perhaps not the wisest idea, .. given that many already consider the game extremely difficult, .. especially given the UI.

I believe that realism options should be selectable or de-selectable, .. and let the player advance at his own pace.

Is this option 4.15 you are talking about?, .. as I notice that it no longer works.


Cheers
Tom

Tom, they are the markers showing your vehicles and soldiers that are visible even when you are inside the tank, through the armor.  See the link that Andrey posted just above yours.  They are selectable to be on or off at present.
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Krabb
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« Reply #172 on: March 07, 2015, 08:04:44 PM »

They are selectable to be on or off at present.
No, they are not. You lag behind the updates. Cheesy
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"It is simply not necessary, it makes no sense"
Tanker
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BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #173 on: March 07, 2015, 08:08:33 PM »

They are selectable to be on or off at present.
No, they are not. You lag behind the updates. Cheesy

Have you announced a new patch available at Gamers' Gate?  If not, I'm not the one that may be lagging. Wink
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:19:27 PM by Tanker » Logged

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topnik
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« Reply #174 on: March 07, 2015, 08:15:37 PM »

They are selectable to be on or off at present.
No, they are not. You lag behind the updates. Cheesy

Have you announced a new patch available at Gamers' Gate?
I don't see it on gamersgate. But there seems to be a new patch on steam:

Slight changes in lighting
3D camera available in deployment and initial orders modes (yes!  Grin)
Fixed the movement orders bugs
Slightly more animations in the T-62 cockpit

Doesn't mention markers though...

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Tanker
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« Reply #175 on: March 07, 2015, 08:20:42 PM »

3D camera available in deployment and initial orders modes (yes!  Grin)

That's a nice improvement.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #176 on: March 07, 2015, 08:22:40 PM »

They are selectable to be on or off at present.
No, they are not. You lag behind the updates. Cheesy

Have you announced a new patch available at Gamers' Gate?  If not, I'm not the one that may be lagging. Wink

Just yesterday updated version on the GamersGate. The whole day GG was ahead the STEAM. Now turn STEAM be ahead for updates.
Than change it again.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Thomasew
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« Reply #177 on: March 07, 2015, 08:56:32 PM »


Do we have re-download the entire game from Gamersgate, .. every time there is an update?

.. if so, .. I guess I won't be updating SABOW that often.

Can't we get Steam keys or something?


Cheers
Tom
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andrey12345
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« Reply #178 on: March 07, 2015, 09:16:36 PM »

Do we have re-download the entire game from Gamersgate, .. every time there is an update?
No, previous update have a critical bug with updater utility and our installer script. This is sad, but I hope fixed.
And next updates will be small and installed by standard way.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
Шун
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« Reply #179 on: March 07, 2015, 09:55:06 PM »

Markers in 3D. They are already removed. Smiley

Не успели порадоваться новым значкам из GTOS.   Smiley
Do not have time to enjoy the new icons of GTOS.   Smiley


« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 09:50:44 PM by Шун » Logged

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