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Author Topic: Why sims like this are ultimately frustrating (personal opinion)  (Read 6525 times)
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Tanker
Generalfeldmarschall
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« on: February 26, 2015, 04:59:07 PM »

I had an aha moment the other day when I regretfully realized why tanks sims like Sabow will never be completely satisfying, for me (also I continue to get my ass kicked by the campaigns Grin).  I think it's a problem unique to tank sims that flight sims and infantry combat sims may not share.  SABOW is a fantastic tank sim.  The level of detail is the best I've ever seen in this type of game.  However I'm not really gratified, as a player, when I'm playing the game.
 
When the engagement range gets beyond 1000m as it tends to do in any post WW2 tank sim, the ability of the human player to spot targets on a normal sized computer monitor is restricted so as to reduce the player to merely being a passenger along for the ride.  Add in any vegetation or brush to the mix and you are much better off letting your ai fight the pc's ai because they can spot each other at distance and through vegetation much better than the human eye can.  I find myself spending more time in the tactical map and in the TC position, trying to stay out of the way and letting the ai gunner spot and decide what to shoot at.
 
ARMA shares this annoying problem.  The ai spots and hits before you even see him.
Maybe it's the size of the monitors we play the game on.  Maybe a full sized tank simulator as used by the Army for armor training would be different.  Maybe it's just the nature of playing against ai.
The spotting icons featured in SF Kharkov 42 go a ways to help with this problem but are decried as too arcade like by some.  Sims like SB2 model a later stage in tank warfare and get around this problem somewhat because thermal imaging is available.

It's probably an impossible dream on many levels but I would love to see how a game like this would operate with all the seats in the tanks having to be filled by humans, or least the TC and gunner seats as a minimum.  But differences in hardware and graphics settings would mean advantages and disadvantages there also.
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topnik
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 05:42:37 PM »

I think it's a problem unique to tank sims that flight sims and infantry combat sims may not share.
Try playing DCS and try to spot tiny targets from a fast flying plane. Most of the times (depending on type of plane and target) you rely on your eyes only, and seeing the enemy is very hard. I also played ARMA a lot, and it was usualy the AI who sees the enemy first.  Grin


But yeah I agree with you. Spotting the enemy can be realy hard and AI does the job much better than we do. Perhaps it would be a good idea to reduce AI spotting ability...
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chaudard
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 06:48:52 PM »

You are right... and wrong. The spotting system of the AI is not a wallhack, you can surprise an ennemy. It's more easy to do by saturating the ennemy tank. If you can, attack a tank with many units. Look at this video from 22:06:
I know it will be very difficult to see and shoot at the tanks. I try to saturate the ennemy by sending a lot of targets to him.
But on a very very long distance, the AI doesn't spot the target. I spot the targets before the AI, so it's very easy to defeat the ennemy on an open map.
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lavish
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 06:59:52 PM »

When it comes to spotting I think it's just natural to not spot the enemy first - in 1 vs 1 situation your chance to spot an equal enemy is more or less fifty-fifty. With multiple enemies present, it's no coincide that there's a high chance to be spotted first by the enemy.

Also, AI have a very different spotting mechanism than human (traces/point-to-point vs shape recognition) and thus AI sees better/worse depending on the situation; AI doesn't get confused by camouflage, for example, but may struggle to spot an object that is partially visible.

BTW, does anybody know (Andrey??) if camouflage have any effect for AI spotting? Does it scale the spotting range or is there any probability based modeling, like chance per time interval?

But on a very very long distance, the AI doesn't spot the target. I spot the targets before the AI, so it's very easy to defeat the ennemy on an open map.

I agree, especially if it's infantry. Grin


p.s. In case someone haven't noticed, you can switch FOV to ~realistic value (with respect to monitor size) by pressing tab.
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whukid
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 05:08:13 AM »

Yes and no. For whatever reason, I tend to take 115mm Indirect an awful lot. God knows how they can see me behind a hut, but whatever. I definitely agree with the vegetation thing.

then again, I also get the upper hand quite a bit, especially at night and especially in the defensive.
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Flashburn
Generalfeldmarschall
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 02:37:33 PM »

I have really come to the conclusion that ww2 and just after tech is probably the best for limitations of the PC and player satisfaction.  Aiming at mainly at the 1500 meters and less range without the give me's of thermal sights and ballistic computers.  Soon as you have those, along with AI that can use them right, a game can get UN-fun right fast as few second chances in a realistic game.  IMO sabow pushes things as far as I think makes a good game.   But still, the guns are SO powerful and ranges can be so far. 

Well that is my 2 cents.  Anything later than a t72m1 is IMO a bad idea for a FUN sim.  M1, leo 2, t90's and that crap takes all the good bits out of a sim.  With ww2 tech probably just right....
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Tanker
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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 09:13:17 PM »

I'd love to have some thermal imaging to pick the opfor out of the underbrush. Cheesy  They just hide in there with their AFVs and recoil less rifles and pick me off now.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 09:25:54 PM »

With ww2 tech probably just right....

Early WW2 and Nomonhan Era  Grin
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johncage
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 06:34:31 PM »

there are features in the game to help you get over. use icons before battle start and you can "spot" the enemy first.

I'd love to have some thermal imaging to pick the opfor out of the underbrush. Cheesy  They just hide in there with their AFVs and recoil less rifles and pick me off now.

i attack at night specifically to use the nightvision, enemy vision is very low here and your vision is very high. you can shoot them to death from a distance, and seeing them through grass is easy, because of high contrast between the dark green color of the world and white glowing body and engine parts.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:36:19 PM by johncage » Logged
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