English translation help pls!

[FB_AGA]

Composite make the most sense in English. destroyer brigade make no sense and I have never ever heard that used for anything.  At best, an English speaker would think tank destroyers aka...marders or maybe some kind of assault gun.  

Ad Hoc even is an good way to describe a thrown together unit.  Task Force is more modern and more or less equal to something like a German panzer group of ww2.  

So I vote...

simply ad hoc

or

composite

Ok, for platoon / company size troop it will be composite.

For "destroyer brigade" will be "(Infantry) Tank Destroyer Brigade" as this term is used by Steven Zaloga who is a very reputable American WW2 historian.


Now, about the germans: what should it be in this case instead of Kampfgruppe?

LOL......... firing squad.  YA... NO hell NO.  Thats for shooting people.  Like for crimes and such. 

That is why I try to stay away from google translate 

[andrey12345]

I am not sure that google is a good source in this case   It provides with casual options, but not specific, like military  

To be honest, I've forgotten that there is already an "Istribitelnaya" brigade; nevertheless, both destroyer and destruction sound weird  

Destroyer brigade may make sense to Russian speakers but it would probably leave English speakers scratching their heads.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/units/brigades/318-1st-tank-destroyer-brigade
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=Z6jGY-sbgiUC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Destroyer+Brigade&source=bl&ots=EGCx2_Q6Nj&sig=YUC9KQwXcxBia7g1jAyp4_7_55Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xnSOVdmJGeP-ywOH06KoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Destroyer%20Brigade&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/614th_Tank_Destroyer_Battalion

Do you think it's all Russian speakers? 

[andrey12345]

Composite make the most sense in English.  destroyer brigade make no sense and I have never ever heard that used for anything.  At best, an English speaker would think tank destroyers aka...marders or maybe some kind of assault gun.  

But Marders its a towed gun+self-propelled cart

It is not clear why if we remove "self-propelled cart", suddenly disappears and Destroyer too?
This sounds very illogical.

Task Force is more modern and more or less equal to something like a German panzer group of ww2.  

It's all temporary tactical/operational units thats organized to do some tasks, in Russian have their analogue battle (combat) group. A ... Destroyer Brigade (like any other brigade) - a full-time organizational structure not temporary.

[FB_AGA]

I am not sure that google is a good source in this case   It provides with casual options, but not specific, like military  

To be honest, I've forgotten that there is already an "Istribitelnaya" brigade; nevertheless, both destroyer and destruction sound weird  

Destroyer brigade may make sense to Russian speakers but it would probably leave English speakers scratching their heads.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/units/brigades/318-1st-tank-destroyer-brigade
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=Z6jGY-sbgiUC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Destroyer+Brigade&source=bl&ots=EGCx2_Q6Nj&sig=YUC9KQwXcxBia7g1jAyp4_7_55Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xnSOVdmJGeP-ywOH06KoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Destroyer%20Brigade&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/614th_Tank_Destroyer_Battalion

Do you think it's all Russian speakers?  

I don't speak about ИПТАБр I speak about Истребительная brigade. They are complitely different. The second has not only AT guns but also minelayers, ATRifles, SMG troops, mortar troops, AA guns, tanks. There is no english equivalent for Истребительная something.


Furthermore "истребительная" brigade / division was in Infantry section but not in Artillery section of an army strenght report. It is a very mixed organisation.

[andrey12345]

I don't speak about ИПТАБр I speak about Истребительная brigade. They are complitely different.

И in ИПТАБР the same as И in ИБ

If IPTABR = Tank Destroyer Brigade
IBR = Destroyer Brigade

I think no sense to produce other essence in this case.

The second has not only AT guns but also minelayers, ATRifles, SMG troops, mortar troops, AA guns, tanks.

And this is something essentially changes? It can not destroy tanks?

[FB_AGA]

I don't speak about ИПТАБр I speak about Истребительная brigade. They are complitely different.

И in ИПТАБР the same as И in ИБ

If IPTABR = Tank Destroyer Brigade
IBR = Destroyer Brigade

I think no sense to produce other essence in this case.

The second has not only AT guns but also minelayers, ATRifles, SMG troops, mortar troops, AA guns, tanks.

And this is something essentially changes? It can not destroy tanks?

The point is in terminology. Every science has its well-established terminology and it is incorrect to introduce new (in our case). Here we have english version of the name, which was used in a reputable work, so we should follow it.

Moreover, as you can see native english speakers don't find just "Destroyer Brigade" as a correct option. Should we teach them english ? 

[andrey12345]

I don't speak about ИПТАБр I speak about Истребительная brigade. They are complitely different.

И in ИПТАБР the same as И in ИБ

If IPTABR = Tank Destroyer Brigade
IBR = Destroyer Brigade

I think no sense to produce other essence in this case.

The second has not only AT guns but also minelayers, ATRifles, SMG troops, mortar troops, AA guns, tanks.

And this is something essentially changes? It can not destroy tanks?

The point is in terminology. Every science has its well-established terminology and it is incorrect to introduce new (in our case). Here we have english version of the name, which was used in a reputable work, so we should follow it.

Moreover, as you can see native english speakers don't find just "Destroyer Brigade" as a correct option. Should we teach them english ?  

I think better orientation in issues of terminology for professional historians, not visitors of the forums.
I bet that if an arbitrary Russian-speaking forum to ask what IPTABR / "Istrebitelnaya brigada", that 99% say they never heard such a thing. In the best case "Istrebitelnaya brigada" = something linked with the aircrafts.

[Krabb]

"Destroyer brigade" in Russian ("истребительная" that is) sounds strange, too.

That's because people are used to GT's quirky terminology and don't bother to say anything.

Too bad, with such attitude it will not improve. And I was wondering why nobody noticed the updated translation.

[andrey12345]

Objective statistic:





May be you English speaking guys know English worse than Google

[Tanker]

I am not sure that google is a good source in this case   It provides with casual options, but not specific, like military  

To be honest, I've forgotten that there is already an "Istribitelnaya" brigade; nevertheless, both destroyer and destruction sound weird  

Destroyer brigade may make sense to Russian speakers but it would probably leave English speakers scratching their heads.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/units/brigades/318-1st-tank-destroyer-brigade
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=Z6jGY-sbgiUC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Destroyer+Brigade&source=bl&ots=EGCx2_Q6Nj&sig=YUC9KQwXcxBia7g1jAyp4_7_55Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xnSOVdmJGeP-ywOH06KoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Destroyer%20Brigade&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/614th_Tank_Destroyer_Battalion

Do you think it's all Russian speakers? 

Umm, nope.

[Tanker]

Objective statistic:

<...>

May be you English speaking guys know English worse than Google

Maybe you are marketing to Google more than to English speaking guys.

Those graphs are probably misleading.  You'd have to examine each and every instance in each and every book to see what the context was.  90% of those "hits" may not have referred to an army unit in the 1940s.  A more useful statistic would be to sample your target audience.  Statistics can be helpful but also terribly misleading.

I think FB_Aga is on the right track relying on Zaloga's terminology.

Krabb: Overquote removed.

[Dane49]

Tank destroyer in English  sounds wrong, unless you are using it to describe units made up of self propelled anti tank guns like the Hellcat or the Jackson, whose sole purpose was to destroy tanks.
When I hear destroyer I think of a class of naval ships DD.

Anti Tank or AT I think will work much better with English audiences when describing units with a tank killing capability.

[Tanker]

I agree with you Dane.  If we are just talking about units to combat tanks.

However, FB_AGA's original question was about what English term to use for an ad hoc unit, made up from other formal organizations, if I understood him correctly.  The best terms I've heard for that so far are "mixed" or "composite".

[Dane49]

Mixed, composite or ad hoc I think would work for the English audience.

Consolidated may work also, but the US army generally didn't disband units for being destroyed. Most units would be pulled off the line for a brief period and reconstituted with replacements after suffering excessive casualties. If that wasn't immediately possible they would put all the remnants in one organisation whose leadership was still intact and refer to them as that unit. This only happended mainly during the battles in the Hurtgen forest during WW2.

During the American civil war Northern regiments were never expected to be reconstituted with replacements but would be disbanded after heavy casualties and whoever remained would be attached to new units that were formed by anyone with future politcal aspirations.
That changed somewhat in 1864, but not much.

[andrey12345]

1) David M. Glantz, ‎Harold Steven Orenstein, ‎Soviet Union.

The 2d Destroyer [Antitank] Division's 4th Brigade was concentrated in the Kursk region, and the 1st Destroyer Brigade was in Vereitinovo.
The headquarters of the Central Front were located in the Svoboda Station region. As is evident from ...

2) Anders Frankson, ‎Niklas Zetterling - 2013
TABLE 3.9: CENTRAL FRONT ANTI-TANK RESERVE
 76mm 45mm
lst Anti-Tank Brigade 40 20
13th Anti—Tank Brigade 40 20
130th Anti—Tank Regiment 24 —
563rd Anti-Tank Regiment — 20
4th Destroyer Brigade 16 12
Total 120 72 ...

3) David M. Glantz - 2005
... 4 82mm mortars each and one battery with four 120mm mortars.
So configured, the strength of the destroyer brigade was 1,791 men, and it fielded sixteen 76mm guns, twelve 45mm guns, four 37mm guns, four 120mm mortars, eight 82mm ...

Oh well, I start write letter to this historians, about what they do not know English  

P.S. "These are the assault brigade, combat brigade, sabotage brigade, commando brigade, and destroyer brigade."
Try to guess a country, army and time 

[FB_AGA]

  Ok, then. Seems these authors used the same logics: if "I AT Brigade" = "AT Destroyer Brigade" then "I Brigade" = "Destroyer Brigade"  

Well, at least we've found out that this point is correct in the game  
 

[topnik]

I'd simply call it Anti tank brigade.


Just curious, what exactly does Истребительная mean? There's a very similar word in my language, and it means exterminator. 

[FB_AGA]

I'd simply call it Anti tank brigade.

There were AT brigades in the Red Army, they had only 45 - 85mm guns. But a "destroyer brigade" had almost all types of ground troops.

Just curious, what exactly does Истребительная mean? There's a very similar word in my language, and it means exterminator. 

Yes, it is something like exterminator. But, I find this word strange in the sense of ground troops too. An ordinary russian person associate this word only with a fighter plane.

[andrey12345]

I'd simply call it Anti tank brigade.

In fact it not really anti-tank. It have howitizers, mortars, infantry, sapers, some tanks and arty, etc.

Istrebitelno-protivotankovaya brigada- this is anti tank
Istrebitelnaya brigada - is not anti tank

That is the essence!

[Dane49]

Oh well, I start write letter to this historians, about what they do not know English  Cheesy

Didn't Russia ban him from reviewing anymore Russian military archives because they didn't like the conclusions He came up with for the Russian army failures during operation Mars?
"Zhukovs Greatest Defeat, Operation Mars"- David M Glantz.