Looking for Sukhoi SU-2 experts

[Flashburn]

Been forever since I worked on this thing....LIFE got in the way.  But attempting to get my old SU-2 done and in the out bin.  As I finish this thing up lots of questions are popping up as I am not vary knowledgeable about this plane.  What I *think* I modeled was an SU-2 M88-B model.  One of the questions I have is about the time line of models.  Which was first and such.  AS you had the 2 main models with the M82 and M88 engines.  I do not even know which is the more powerful engine.  Or when the M88-B model was most used.  It appears mainly in the 1941-1942 time frame.  Of course all models of this plane was gone by 1943 or so it seems.  Not surprising, IL-2 or PE-2 where going to be way more effective ground attack platforms. 







The other BIG question I have is about how the fuselage of the M88-B was constructed.  I simply lack proper reference.  Some clearly a fabric over a wooden frame.  And this, over time and weather conditions would show threw the "skin".  That is, the fabric over the wood frame.  But other models of the SU-2 you do not see this happen at all.  Not sure if some models where simply fabric over frame or actually riveted sheets of aluminum or what.  From photos it looks like both happened.  What is "right" for an su2 M82-B.  If its fabric I want to stick in those details into the textures.  If its rivets, I want to do those.  But have no clue as of now.  Help on this would be great!   

Also, if anyone has photos of cracked up shot down SU2's that would help a ton as well.  Trying to figure out where common failure points to the air frame are.  Photos I have seen of brought down SU-2 that crash landed the plane is mangled but intact.  That does not help when trying to figure out when major damage was sustained.  Like fuel tanks blowing and taking wings off.  Or cannon fire blowing bits of plane apart.  A bit morbid this, but need to know where this plane would likely fail with massive damage. 

Hopefully someone spots this threat quick.  As I am nearly on final details to the fuselage.  If you spot anything really wrong let me know as well.   

[Flashburn]

Hmm this thing might end up pretty neat.  Still a heck of a lot to do...

[FB_AGA]

One of the questions I have is about the time line of models.  Which was first and such.  AS you had the 2 main models with the M82 and M88 engines.  I do not even know which is the more powerful engine.  Or when the M88-B model was most used.  It appears mainly in the 1941-1942 time frame.  Of course all models of this plane was gone by 1943 or so it seems.  Not surprising, IL-2 or PE-2 where going to be way more effective ground attack platforms.  

With M-88B was introduced before the war. The first two serial planes with M-82 were built in september 1941, but manufacturing was slow. M-82 was more powerful. In april 1942 the production of Su-2 was finished. In the end of 1942 Su-2 were only in two bomber regiments, both in the Southern front (somewhere near Stalingrad), and the number of M-88B and M-82 was about equal there.

The other question I can't answer today.

Best,

[Flashburn]

AGA, I may do something in the middle for the fuselage detail.  That is, something that would work either way.  Probably no one will really look that close anyways.  But vary hard to figure out from old photos.  That is for sure.  




Not having fun with the remaining details on the underside.  Not sure how I am going to handle the observation window crap on the belly.  Think my geometry is to low to make it look right as well as a bit off on the form.  Its way to late to fix it as that would mean throwing out hours of work on the normal maps.  POOP! Hope its passable.  

Ugh, just looks goofy to my eye. 

[FB_AGA]

Looks wonderful to me, but I don't really understand anything in plane models  

On the fuselage, I don't see anything about fabric. Veneer was over the wooden frame. And rivet parts look correct on you model, but I am not a specialist.

I've just started looking through russian web on this plane, found only this







On this page http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_988291.html#988291 there are photos of Su-2 plastic model which is assessed as one of the best by that community, which is quite experienced.

[Flashburn]

HMMM, that final picture, I have not seen that one before.  That could be vary useful.    


Ok so NOT fabric.  Although on some it certainly looks like it for tail and flaps.  Just so hard to find pics with good detail on fuselage for M88 types.  M82 it seems a few made it threw the war.  


Maybe that is actually the key I am looking for.  The fact I cant see any detail like panel or fatigue on war time planes there.  Perhaps the right thing to do is leave it be.     In fact the only time I have really seen details to this area are on illustrations of the plane, not actual photos from the war.  Makes sence I guess, if decades later someone goes off and does an illistation of a 40 year or older plane, ya it will show the summers and winters if its basically wood.  But only a year or 2 old, I guess it did not.   

[Flashburn]

Ya that is a nice model.  He even stuck in the bottom gun that was rarely fit.  I had no idea where that went!  Do not think I will put in my model either.  Real world added to much extra weight and would mean either more sluggish performance or reduced bomb load.  Well that is what i read at any rate. 

Well hopefully I get this bugger finished up soon   Its pretty close now.  Final details on the bottom, final defuse texture job, and LOD's really. 

[FB_AGA]

Ya that is a nice model.  He even stuck in the bottom gun that was rarely fit.  I had no idea where that went!  Do not think I will put in my model either.  Real world added to much extra weight and would mean either more sluggish performance or reduced bomb load.  Well that is what i read at any rate.  

Well hopefully I get this bugger finished up soon   Its pretty close now.  Final details on the bottom, final defuse texture job, and LOD's really.  

Bottom gun is seemed to be more suitable for 1942 production with M-82. In general, in Russian sources there are Su-2 1941 with M-88 and 5 MG, and Su-2 1942 with M-82 and 6 MG.

[Flashburn]

That bottom MG might be vary cool the more I think about it.  

Have to look more into the historical side, but perhaps a recon version complete with the camera mount?  Or simply see what changes are needed for an M82 version.  That is apart from a different well, everything on the front of the plane.  If the rest of the plane is the same apart from the engine, might be something to do.  Then again, for game purposes it really does not matter that much unless thinking about a max load of bombs.  That is using both the bomb bay and the external racks.  While a bad idea if the SU2 has to evade fighters, does not matter much for ground pounding in a game.  I mean, its all correct to an extent.  Just what was the normally done.  


Maybe I will just make it with the max options in the mesh.  Game is able to hide areas via config.  Perhaps simply something random and let the dice roll to see what happens.  


Last thought.  So pretty much this plane fits in most from late 41 to summer 42.  For past operations of game, its pretty much Shilovo...   or hold on to it till it fits something in the future....

[Flashburn]

Should have done a PE-2....


If I do more planes in future I am damned well making sure it fits MIUS.  Or simply make some better looking replacements for the IL-2 and JU-87. 

[FB_AGA]

That bottom MG might be vary cool the more I think about it.  

Have to look more into the historical side, but perhaps a recon version complete with the camera mount?  

Well, I am not sure that a recon plane is suitable for the game. They usualy fly high, 3 - 6 kilometers, while the game camera could be raised up to one or about. And their information went to an Army HQ or maybe to a Corps, but definitely not to a battalion or regiment HQ.

Should have done a PE-2....

Pe-2 is a great idea, but they also fly high, the same 3 - 6 km usually.

I believe, there is a place for level bombers in the game setting, cause He-111, Ju-88, Pe-2 and A-20 were widely used on Mius, for example. But, in my opinion very small and simple models are enough for them, that from the ground there would be an impression that someone is flying above.

[Flashburn]

Well if I do another air craft that fw189 sure looks appealing.  Just such a funky plane. 

[Dane49]

Aircraft play such a small role in this game. Why don't you concentrate on something that players want and can use on a regular basis!

[Flashburn]

Aircraft play such a small role in this game. Why don't you concentrate on something that players want and can use on a regular basis!

I have....  But working from 1st to last on unfinished things.  And partly did this as most of the plane models have not changed since K43 times.  They look a bit, hmmmm retro.  

The other stuff in the cue....







In fact I am starting to think maybe seeking out good texture guys so where I could focus a bit more on models and less on textures and maybe take on things with a larger scope.  Something I am starting to consider.  But still waiting for MIUS.  That should end up a nice motivator.  And if life stops throwing wrenches at me. 

[Flashburn]

Think I got the bottom MG in right.  Maybe...well its sort of close anyhow.  



Just need to get the rest of the belly complete.   Then move on to the final textures already.  At any rate, I have dubbed this the polished turd.  Its decent low poly mesh, but really am putting way to much time into the normal maps.  Ahh well...


Ugh, still needs tweaks.  Looks off.  Why is this stupid thing being a pain? 

[Flashburn]

All the mesh bits are in but bombs and bomb racks.  Now to finish the normal map of the belly of the plane. 

[Flashburn]

The little turd is coming along....

Anyone have scale drawings of a FAB-250 or Fab-100? 

[FB_AGA]

It seems, that FAB-250 was usually used againts targets in rear. Re FAB-100, although a lot of different types were used I can't find any high quality drawing of a proper one   Will try harder.

Generally speaking, SU-2, Il-2 and U-2 used AO-25, AO-10, AO-8 also very often and especially AO-2.5 (4 times more than FAB-100). Can't say the same about FAB-50 which is in the game...atleast in early 1942 and Mid 1943.

PS. The model is wonderful!

[Flashburn]

Yes the AO series.....  And the bomb rack I made....and lost before.  Will get tackled I think.  I know the FAB 250 is not what you would generally use at the sharp end.   More like blowing up a building, but looking for an optional random load out that fits with the bottom mg version.  Or what will be that version.  600kg load  which is perfect for fab 100 without bottom MG and extra gunner.  4 fab 100 in bomb bay and 2 under wings...  But version with bottom gun I am thinking a version with a stupid  big stick, the FAB 250.  Another possible for bottom MG version is RS82 rockets.   Both would be mounted on the under wing hard points.  Speaking of which, I  need get that bit into the normal maps as well as all the bomb rocket mounting crap.  Well the engine needs to get love too.  

FAB 50's I am not worrying about as there is a model in game.  Its just making the things work with model.  The AO series is vary interesting....  To bad the PTAB's where not in use yet when the SU2 was wide spread.  

I can not find any drawings or plans that are any good for bombs.  I find this vary odd.  I guess just getting the dimensions could work too.  At least photos are not to hard to find.  But more info on the AO series....which was most common and all that.  


I am sort of going all out with this polished turd.  Why not right?  

Still have not gotten to weathering yet...

[Flashburn]

 


1st attempt at getting the last of the engine area ok.