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Author Topic: Under air attack  (Read 4670 times)
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wodin
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Posts: 495


« on: August 16, 2016, 12:39:55 PM »

Shouldn't Arty or Inf Guns stop shooting unless about to be over run by ground forces say when ground attack planes are overhead? At the moment a flight of IL2's can pretty much wipe every Arty and Inf Gun piece of the map and if your playing unlimited area that can be a serious devastating blow. Yes airstrikes should be nasty but at the minute they can more or less destroy so many of your units that they win the battle by themselves. It's more painful when on defence. Plus there seems to be a lack of anti air units to at least combat them to some degree. Once I see a flight of IL2's come over then I know that's the end no matter how well I had defended up until that point.

So more anti air units and more cautious gunners would be great.
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ppitm
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 02:11:18 PM »

Why can't you issue Hold Fire command? Fire at Aircraft can be turned off in the Initial Orders phase for zero command cost.

But I agree that complete lack of AA is strange. Does the 85mm AA gun the Soviets have even shoot at aircraft? It doesn't have a damage rating for them in the UI.

Also, what's this unlimited area that you're talking about?
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Flashburn
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 08:34:16 AM »

If your guns are in the open and or firing they are pretty well dead meat if air power shows up.  You need to pretty well order everything you want to have a chance to survive to hold fire and or not target air craft.  Sticking every gun in like trees helps a little bit.  But those planes are stupid good at spotting guns everywhere. 

I have had a bit of success with ordering hold fire and not target air craft with infantry and turn it on when the planes are nearly over head.  Usually can kill 2 or 3 planes with enough infantry in a good spot.  But probably will loose most of those infantry on the planes next pass if this was the first thing the planes end up spotting.  I have also tried other crazy things like order a bunch of trucks to drive around with questionable success.  The idea being to get the planes to waste their bombs on something less important.  Its only sort of worked out once.  But has worked OK if its a tank.  And usually the tank survives if its fast moving buttoned up on a road.  Most planes end up dropping most of their bombs at the thing if this is the 1st thing they spot. 

For the 85mm guns, they will not target air planes.  And this sort of tactical air support so low to the ground it would be incredibly ineffective as these sorts of large AAA guns are more intended to fire flak bursts all over the place at higher altitude and not attempt to target low flying planes.   We really need light auto cannons and machine guns on anti air craft mounts to deal with massed planes.  They will still mess you up flying in massed formations, but at least you might  kill a few planes, perhaps before they wreck your day.   But probably they would just become targets to the planes to waste bombs on...   Tongue

If I still had my 3ds max I would so finally get around to modeling at least a 20mm German flak gun.   Sad sauce.   Sad
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ppitm
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 11:36:21 AM »

I've only been under air attack once, and every Stuka dropped its bomb on the same stationary T-34. Each bomb fell just a little short, right onto the heads of the German infantry foxholes surrounding it. Poor tank ended up getting tracked, but was looking a damn sight better than its nearby enemies.

Not too worried about air attacks in the Stepanovka campaign going forward, since Soviet guns seem pretty useless in this context. 45mm AT is no good for anything beside last ditch defense and ambushes. My infantry always hide in the woods anyways, and their biggest concern is the cheating AI dropping accurate arty right on their position with zero spotting or LoS.
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Flashburn
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 11:56:16 AM »

I've only been under air attack once, and every Stuka dropped its bomb on the same stationary T-34. Each bomb fell just a little short, right onto the heads of the German infantry foxholes surrounding it. Poor tank ended up getting tracked, but was looking a damn sight better than its nearby enemies.

Not too worried about air attacks in the Stepanovka campaign going forward, since Soviet guns seem pretty useless in this context. 45mm AT is no good for anything beside last ditch defense and ambushes. My infantry always hide in the woods anyways, and their biggest concern is the cheating AI dropping accurate arty right on their position with zero spotting or LoS.


That is not cheating. Since K43 they AI will randomly drop arty around key points.  Have to be careful about that one.  Other wise something got spotted and may have been like 4 minutes earlier. 

But air attack is a BIG problem for large guns.  Like howitzers.  Even not firing in brush they often get blown up with bombs.  They IMO get spotted to easy.  It should be quite hard to see a 105mm gun in a tree line if its doing nothing to advertise its existence.  Small guns are much more likely, at least recently to not get spotted if placed well and they are doing nothing to say shoot at me.   

Hmmm and the 45mm M42 gun is quite good close in.  Its like really good.... Like kill a tiger good with the right ammo.  The older 53' one I have to agree.  Its just as crappy as the German pak 35 37mm.  But good for killing half tracks at least.
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ppitm
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 07:39:20 PM »

Quote
That is not cheating. Since K43 they AI will randomly drop arty around key points. 

It sure looks like cheating to me, because I can't do it.

They can drop artillery inside a neat 100 meter radius when their only spotter is 2km away with no line of sight. If I tried to do something like that, the rounds would fall in a 1500m circle.

I've also seen shells land perfectly on my AT guns that were sitting in the middle of a field far away from all keypoints (they were in defilade at midnight, never having moved or fired and the ceasefire proved that no enemy unit could have spotted them).


From this I assume that the game aims semi-accurate artillery at larger troop concentrations, so I have taken to spreading out my reserve forces to avoid whatever scripted fire missions are being aimed at them.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 07:48:21 PM »

They can drop artillery inside a neat 100 meter radius when their only spotter is 2km away with no line of sight.

It puts ranges on the stage of the initial orders (like experienced player), in those places where the will to shoot. And pushes them gently so as not to bring down guidance.

If you set it during the battle of course it will not work  Wink.

From this I assume that the game aims semi-accurate artillery at larger troop concentrations, so I have taken to spreading out my reserve forces to avoid whatever scripted fire missions are being aimed at them.
AI always fires at key points in pure Defence or Attack mode, FlashBurn said it right. The more important point is the more likely that there will arrive gunfire.
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"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
ppitm
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2016, 08:18:36 PM »


It puts ranges on the stage of the initial orders (like experienced player), in those places where the will to shoot. And pushes them gently so as not to bring down guidance.

If you set it during the battle of course it will not work  Wink.


I'm assuming it also spies on your deployment. So I guess if I want to keep rear echelon troops safe, I should put them in covered positions only after the start of the battle.

Because the places the AI chooses to shoot at it in my game are very far from any keypoints.
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andrey12345
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2016, 10:10:31 PM »


It puts ranges on the stage of the initial orders (like experienced player), in those places where the will to shoot. And pushes them gently so as not to bring down guidance.

If you set it during the battle of course it will not work  Wink.


I'm assuming it also spies on your deployment. So I guess if I want to keep rear echelon troops safe, I should put them in covered positions only after the start of the battle.

Because the places the AI chooses to shoot at it in my game are very far from any keypoints.

AI estimates the area suitability for defense.
It roughly divides it into zones and classifies them good or not, and in addition to the key points is shelling to "good places" (typical example - predefined positions on Mius map). So yes, if you put troops in a good defensive position it is probably you will get fire.
Classification of the AI and for the player may be different of course, but obviously good places likely will fire when the AI goes into the attack.
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"Русские танки из-за нехватки снарядов сновали повсюду, стараясь раздавить наших солдат." (с) фантастические рассказы про Восточный фронт
wodin
Generalmajor
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Posts: 495


« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 12:34:19 AM »

ppitm: Try the large campaign as the Germans with unlimited Battle area set in options..Most likely either the first or second attack..enjoy the Air show:0

As for manually clicking hold fire..surely this sort of thing should be something the AI just did without any player micromanagement...it's really common sense and I think anything that's common sense any tac AI should do as standard.
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ppitm
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 01:44:13 PM »

As for manually clicking hold fire..surely this sort of thing should be something the AI just did without any player micromanagement...it's really common sense and I think anything that's common sense any tac AI should do as standard.

Why? It's a natural decision for troops to shoot at aircraft if they have proper weapons for it.

Realistically you would expect some units in a large battle to try and shoot down planes, unless they received explicit orders to the contrary.
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wodin
Generalmajor
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Posts: 495


« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 03:40:24 PM »

Yeah and they would also have a sense of self preservation..I'd say it was more unnatural for Inf to start shooting and ground attack aircraft..they at more likely running for cover and trying to be as small as possible..

Have you ever read the statistics of how many men in an average Platoon would actually fire their weapon in a firefight..and then out of those how many actually used aimed fire? It's surprisingly low in both cases..
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 03:42:51 PM by wodin » Logged
ppitm
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 04:27:24 PM »

Have you ever read the statistics of how many men in an average Platoon would actually fire their weapon in a firefight..and then out of those how many actually used aimed fire? It's surprisingly low in both cases..

Now ask how many fighter pilots fired their guns in a mission.

That doesn't apply to shooting at faceless machines.
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wodin
Generalmajor
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Posts: 495


« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 06:27:17 PM »

yeah but would you give away your position in the vain hope you may hit something? Also Arty can't shoot upwards:)

Anyway we can go backwards and forwards here:)

Just think in certain situations esp Arty Units should cease firing when air units are above unless they are under immediate danger..

Would rather there be a button for Arty\Inf gun units for players to set  fire regardless of planes, but default it be that they don't fire at all when above
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 06:29:29 PM by wodin » Logged
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