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Author Topic: Tell me how you want me to play .  (Read 4511 times)
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orson
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« on: October 22, 2016, 09:59:36 PM »

 Andre and Graviteam ,
I love your games , let me say that first . And a thanks for continued development .

 I currently have an issue while trying to enjoy your amazing looking game . While playing the campaign , I am frustrated by one thing more than anything , and that is the way AI uses artillery .

              When I field an artillery spotter , I view it as a key piece , and must decide how I wish to deploy it , on the attack I can rely on pre-designated fire areas and safely keep the spotter well back , the arty may start at 1000+ accuracy , but after a few mins ranging shots we can get it on target and down to <80 accuracy  ... if I change target "on the fly" .. then the delay can be as much as 12+ mins .

                   The AI artillery is a marvel that would make gunners in the Iraq war blush , with response times and accuracy beating modern Excalibur equipped guns .

                    Think I exaggerate ? I just finished playing a scenario in the second German campaign , and after the initial ambush I was doing fine , good arcs of cover .. quite a kill box , after around 2 mins of initial contact , the arty started .. for the next hour , every fighting position in my defence seemed to be made from bombs , all the dug in guns had a neat cluster of rounds drop just behind each gun , all these clusters landing in the size  of one setup box sized grouping . Marder has no chance ... if I am really lucky and watching at the time , I might see the first incendiary round land like 10 feet away ... if I hit "Y" really quick and make it reverse , I can sometimes just avoid the neat little cluster of rounds that land about 5 seconds after .
                   None of this fire is being called in by a designated spotter , unless 2 scout snipers have the ability to call in division level assets ? :?  After firing , a unit can expect to be shelled within 30 seconds to 2 mins .

AI FO- " New target grid 567-840-748-389 ..over"
Gunners-" shot , over "
AI FO- "dam that was quick .. er .. shot , out"
Gunny- " splash , over"
AI FO- " Splash , out ... erm great shooting ...fire for effect , over"
Gunny- " Fire for effect , out .... dam i'm good "


Can you add the random factor back to artillery please ? I remember from playing OS , any unspotted artillery had a huge chance of deviation , and when it did come in .. it was a lot more randomly placed and covered a wider area , the Mius front arty feels like modern era .

Thanks for your time .

Orson
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 10:11:24 PM by orson » Logged

andrey12345
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 12:37:10 PM »

About what kind of artillery do you mean? In the battle there, or offmap?

If 1st, the AI ​​uses a fire ground (just as it does the player), pre-calculating the best place to deploy the batteries at battle start.
If 2nd, as a player, pre-arranges the ranges and then corrects them. Initially shoot to key points/ suspicious locations where it thinks will be good to positioning units. And then switch to the direct support of troops, shifting ranges.


In general, it uses the same interface as the player. And you can do the same with your artillery.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
andrey12345
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 12:43:01 PM »

Can you add the random factor back to artillery please ? I remember from playing OS , any unspotted artillery had a huge chance of deviation , and when it did come in .. it was a lot more randomly placed and covered a wider area , the Mius front arty feels like modern era .


AI shoots extremely inaccurate, because rarely can find a normal place for guns (it is not a human and very poor solves geometrical problems). For offmap artillery, it also has problems associated with the criterion of ammunition consumption for the selected target.

P.S. In AI has exactly three advantages over human: it knows the rules of the game (and use them), it can be unpredictable, it is not lazy Smiley.
Everything else is solid disadvantages.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 12:48:10 PM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
orson
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 04:23:11 PM »

I am only referring to off map artillery .

An example ... I choose a target for a strike , but my guys have spotted a large group of infantry in the open , I draw a line for the arty to hit  , for this example lets say I have 4x80mm mortar off board , so the response time is pretty fast ( some large guns can take up to 12 mins ) .. my spotter can not see the area , so he is using map co-ordinates (unspotted) ..the initial accuracy can be 1000+ .. after a few mins ranging then they start landing where they should . If he can see the area the initial accuracy is 50 - 30 ..even 10

But AI artillery does not follow these rules , time and time the enemy shells land with 0.5 accuracy on a first strike , the AI artillery does not appear to suffer from the same penalties of time to range a new target .

Do any of the realism settings have any affect on how the AI works ,
or for earning the Steam achievements  ?
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andrey12345
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 05:54:29 PM »

I am only referring to off map artillery .
How do you distinguish the shells from offmap and onmap artillery?
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
andrey12345
Graviteam
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Posts: 6370


Jerk developer


« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 05:59:47 PM »

But AI artillery does not follow these rules , time and time the enemy shells land with 0.5 accuracy on a first strike , the AI artillery does not appear to suffer from the same penalties of time to range a new target .
How do you check this "enemy shells land with 0.5 accuracy"?
Developers use extremely cumbersome visualization and logging system for AI actions. But you somehow checks without it. Very interesting. Please describe the methodology.


Do any of the realism settings have any affect on how the AI works ,
Of course not.
Realism settings affects only to realism. Nothing to do with AI.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
orson
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 07:00:04 PM »

I am only referring to off map artillery .
How do you distinguish the shells from offmap and onmap artillery?

Just by looking at the types of rounds ( incendiary for e.g ) , amount of incoming ( a lot of shells ) or just look at the enemy composition ( does he have mortars or guns ) . I ambushed a small group of 4x rifle and 1x LMG ..the group that ambushed them was wiped out by off board arty , the AI had no assets on board , just dead tanks and infantry . The squad was wiped , how did the enemy arty spotter get my position ?

What I have been saying , is that every soldier in the AI army seems to have the ability to call in pin point artillery .
On the odd occasion , I think I may have killed all the spotter units , and the blissful silence is golden .


I play with all units visible , because the option is there . I played a small game of hide and seek with 3 small squads on hold fire , the enemy has 12+ squads ... I hid my small force in a gully.... sshhh .
          After scouting the map for a while , the AI just got bored and mounted a full assault on my concealed position , bee line straight for them .  If I was playing a human , I might suspect foul play  Wink  . If you say the AI does not "cheat" by looking where my men are ... how do they know to head straight to my position ?

Just to say thanks for taking the time to reply , I am definitely not trying to bring the image of the game down with these remarks , just trying to work out what is going on in the game  , been a long time fan of Graviteam and will be for as long as I can .
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chaudard
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 03:12:33 PM »

Quote
What I have been saying , is that every soldier in the AI army seems to have the ability to call in pin point artillery .
On the odd occasion , I think I may have killed all the spotter units , and the blissful silence is golden .
I experienced the same feeling  Grin We are paranoid  Cheesy
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