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Author Topic: Making Chieftain (a bit) faster  (Read 6076 times)
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33lima
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Posts: 265



« on: November 15, 2016, 09:54:35 PM »

I want to increase the painfully slow average cross-country speed of the GT:OS Chieftain, by maybe 30-50% - to get it closer to the GT:OS M60A1, which is no dune buggy but is not only significantly faster, but seems to respond to move commands more briskly (to me, it's like it overcomes inertia faster than Chieftain).

I'm not complaining, and I don't want to start a discussion about whether the Chieftain was really so slow. I believe it wasn't, and I want to tweak it.

As per Whukid's modding guide, and remembering what I have learned about filenames and extensions from SF '42, I used cfgp2pd.cmd to convert the file that looks like the one with the relevant data - techn_base_mtc80.loc_def.config - to techn_base_mtc80.loc_def.engcfg2 - and then opened the latter file, with Notepad++.

There doesn't appear to be fixed settings for speed in this file, so I'm guessing this is determined by the game engine from the figures for vehicle weight, engine power, transmission type, gear data or whatever else affects the speed component of mobility. Comparing the entry for the Chieftain with the one for the M60A1 - which I want the Chieftain to be maybe slightly slower than - I can see some differences in these figures. But short of lots of trial and error, it's hard to see what needs to change, without having unintended side effects.

The relevant block of text for the Chieftain reads like this, with M60A1 data for the lines which appear relevant alongside, in red. There are also blocks, not reproduced below, covering the suspension systems - tracks ('caterpillars') and wheels - but these are even harder to interpret, and seem to me to be less likely to be what slows the Chiefie down so badly in GT:OS (and possibly also in SABOW).

Thanks in anticipation!


CHIEFTAIN                                              M60A1
name(s)   = txt_tn_chief_mk5;
      mesh(s)   = chief_mk5;
      ostov_type(s)   = tabs\ostovs_mtc80.cfgpack,chief_ostov*;
      mesh_lods(u)   = 3;
      type
  •    = TANK;
      select_as(u)   = 2;
      vis_factor[f]   = 1;
      grass_hide[f]   = 0.1;
      effect[f]   = 120;
      trace_map(s)   = pen_tanks;
      manual_rot(b)= false;
      immobile(b)   = false;
      deform(b)= false;
      forw_techn(b)= true;
      bb_round[f]   = 10;
      snd_pillars(s)   = pillar_chief;
      snd_engine(s)   = engine_chief;
      snd_list(s) = snd_list1;
      sndp_base_freq(u)   = 0x0000ac44;
      sndp_base_freq_k[f]   = 0.7;
      snde_base_freq(u)   = 0x0000ac44;
      snde_base_freq_k[f]   = 1;
      snd_horn(s)   = horn;
      snd_starter(s)= starter;
      snd_gear(s)= gear;
      snd_move(s)= ;
      interf_cfg(s)= ;
      mass[f]   = 54000;
      drop_h[f]   = 2;
      j[v]   = 150000, 150000, 90000, 0;
      engine_m[f]   = 100;              engine_m[f]   = 100; 
      engine_pow[f]   = 750;      engine_pow[f] = 643;
      eng_tau[f]   = 0.5;               eng_tau[f]= 0.5;
      min_w[f]   = 400;
      max_w[f]   = 2300;
      water_line(s)= s_waterline;
      diesel(b)= true;
      fuel_rash[f]   = 150;
      fuel_tank[f]   = 292;
      acc_capacity[f]   = 200;
      eng_start_cur[f]   = 500;      eng_start_cur[f]= 500;
      suo_cur[f]   = 10;                suo_cur[f]= 10;
      eng_cur[f]   = 5;                  eng_cur[f]= 5;
      gen_power[f]   = 3;          gen_power[f]= 3;
      transm_type(u)   = 2;          transm_type (u)= 3;
      steer_wheel(b)= false;          steer_wheel(b)= true;
      arm[v]   = 196, 120, 35, 35;
      arm_week[v]   = 120, 50, 25, 25;
      armor_thick[f]   = 100;
      armor_map(s)= arm_chief_mk5_dift;
      armor_qual[f]   = 0.95;
      armor_frail[f]   = 0.3;
      armor_str[f]   = 2200;
      flame_dam[f]   = 0.05;
      pike(u)   = 0;
      boekomplekt(s)= ;
      detonate(s)= ;
      anti_fire(u)   = 0;
      air_starts(u)   = 0;
      crew_move(u)   0;
      crew_rotate(u)   = 0;
      move_vertical(b)= false;
      pill_rep_time[f]   = 20;
      eng_ai_snd_min[f]   = 100;
      eng_ai_snd_max[f]   = 700;
      max_tac_pen(u)   = 500;
      max_dir_pen(u)   = 200;
      target_type(u)   = 1;

   } //endof props

   gears[ff]()
   {
      -2.5, 1;          -2.1, 1;
      0, 1;             0,1
      2.7, 1;          2,1
      1.5, 0.6;        0.9, 0.4
      0.9, 0.4;        0.42, 0.2
      0.5, 0.3;
      0.33, 0.2;
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 08:04:10 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
davidx
Hauptmann
***
Posts: 30


« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 11:39:12 PM »

Hello,

my observations are from the shield of prophet campaign only, since i do not play to much of the quick battle, but the described issue with the chieftain tanks was only observed when playing as the Iranian side. When the Iranian side is the opposing force controlled by the AI, they appear to operate "normally".

That make me wonder if it truly is the data file? It would be interesting to see if the "modified" chieftain datafile, when under AI opposing force command becomes super fast? It may be interesting to play a chieftain vs chieftain tank battle?



regards,
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 11:42:58 PM by davidx » Logged
davidx
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Posts: 30


« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 06:56:58 PM »

Hello,

Shows what I know about quick battles.  I attempted a "chieftain vs chieftain" battle. Apparently you cannot have the same "grouping" of units on both sides, in this specific case, Iranian. Wonder why?

regards,
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33lima
Oberst
******
Posts: 265



« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2016, 07:07:19 PM »

Interesting, and thanks for the observation  - I will set up a battle with Chieftains under AI control - against something they can fight!

In the mission featured in this mission report...

http://combatace.com/topic/86025-sabow-revenge-of-the-chieftains/#entry693029

...I remember seeing similar behaviour - creeping and stopping - by AI Chieftains in SABOW, though I also see that I described one of them speeding up and 'moving fast'!

Also, I was reading this rather excellent mission report by Silent Disapproval Robot...

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=6015.0

...where Chieftains seem to be little more than cannon fodder for even T-55s, which makes me wonder, even though it's unwise to draw firm conclusions from a single series of actions. 

Edit - pure AI Chieftain in GT:OS seems no faster than player Chieftain. seems like a data file edit may be indicated. Apart from engine HP and transmission type, 'gears' seems to be the big difference, unless the big penalty is somewhere in the suspension data.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 08:06:22 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
h0nky542
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 9


« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 01:08:38 PM »

I've been getting into this game lately.
I decided to look at the specs for the 2 mentioned tanks M60 & Chieftain.  Interesting disparity in info available, almost nobody gives an off-road speed for the M60 & I see differences in reported power/speed for the Chieftain.

Quote
http://norfolktankmuseum.co.uk/chieftain-mbt-mk-23-fv4201/
The Chieftain Main Battle Tank Mk 2/3 is fitted with the Leyland L60 MK4A. 19 litre, 6 cylinder 12 piston, vertically opposed, water cooled, 2 stroke diesel engine, producing 650bhp at 2100rpm giving the vehicle a top speed of 25.3mph. The vehicle is also fitted with an H30 No.4 Mk7A 3 cylinder, 6 piston vertically opposed, 2 stroke Diesel engine, producing 27bhp and used to drive a 200 amp generator for charging the batteries and a single phase 6 amp 200V alternator for the turret power supply.

As this differs from Wikipedia (but the museum actually has a chieftain), I'm wondering about versions.

Quote
Engine   Leyland L60 (multifuel 2-stroke opposed-piston compression-ignition)
750 hp (560 kW) 6 Cyl, 19 litres.
Power/weight   11.1 hp (8.3 kW)/ton (at sprocket)[2]
Transmission   TN 12[2]
Suspension   Horstmann: Horizontal Coil Spring Suspension Bogies
Ground clearance   1 ft 10 in (0.56 m))[2]
Fuel capacity   195 imp gal (890 l)[2]
Operational range
500 km (310 miles) on roads
Speed   Road: 48 km/h (30 mph)
Off road: 30 km/h (19 mph)

M60
Quote
The Continental AVDS-1790-2C 12 cylinder air-cooled diesel engine provides 750 bhp at a rotational speed of 2,400rpm. The M60A3 achieves a maximum cross-country speed of 10mph to 12mph and up to 30mph roadspeed. The cruise range is 312 miles.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/m60/

So the M60 is much slower off-road if wikipedia Chieftain data is to be believed.

Quote
Engine   Continental AVDS-1790-2 V12, air-cooled Twin-turbo diesel engine
750 bhp (560 kW)[4]
Power/weight   15.08 bhp/st (12.4 kW/tonne)[4]
Transmission   General Motors, cross-drive, single-stage with 2 forward and 1 reverse ranges[4]
Suspension   Torsion bar suspension
Ground clearance   1 foot 6.2 inches (0.463 m)[4]
Fuel capacity   385 U.S. gallons (1,457 L)[4]
Operational range
300 miles (500 km)[4]
Speed   30 mph (48 km/h) (road)[4]

One obvious issue is the power to weight ratio, the M60 is higher by the look of it.
Looking at the Norfolk museums data, if the Chieftain is actually 25mph & not 30 then 19mph off-road is more likely to be reduced by 1/6 also =~14 mph but thats still >2mph faster than the M60A3...

Maybe try matching the Chieftain gear values to the M60 & see how the Chieftain performs, at least that would be a reference point you could work with.
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33lima
Oberst
******
Posts: 265



« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 10:10:26 PM »

Yes, that's what I thought. However, I am currently trying out an 'engine mod' for SABOW, by Will73...

http://stasf2008.ephpbb.com/t872-fix-for-t-62-and-chieftain

...which tweaks Chieftain's mobility in that sim, and may be portable to GT:OS.

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For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
h0nky542
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 9


« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 03:18:50 PM »

I did a compare on the contents of the mod you linked to & your earlier data (which .flatdata did you find that in, nothing popped out at me when looking through my DLCs.)

The most obvious differences were : -
Code:
MOD-        j[v]   = 269300, 302600, 76900, 0;
GTOS-      j[v]   = 150000, 150000, 90000, 0;

-this looks important but no idea what j[v] is.  Cheesy Huh?

Code:
MOD-        engine_m[f] = 540;
GTOS-      engine_m[f] = 100;

That increase may be the one that will most simply change speed/power.

Code:
MOD-       min_w[f]  = 500;
GTOS-          min_w[f]   = 400;

Code:
MOD-        transm_type[u] = 0;
GTOS-            transm_type[u]   = 2;   


Code:
MOD-        gears[ff]()
{
-1.5, 0.7;
-2.3, 1;
0, 1;
2.1, 1;
1.7, 0.65;
1.2, 0.55;
0.9, 0.4;
0.5, 0.23;
0.28, 0.13;

} //endof gears


GTOS-         gears[ff]()
   {
      -2.5, 1;       
      0, 1;           
      2.7, 1;       
      1.5, 0.6;     
      0.9, 0.4;     
      0.5, 0.3;
      0.33, 0.2;
--quite a few changes there.  Maybe some values only apply to the tank-sim or that 0 type transmission?

There are some other things eg - 2x transm_turn entries in the mod cfg, which I guess are tank-sim only.
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33lima
Oberst
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Posts: 265



« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 09:29:52 PM »

Will73 has now said that the SABOW mod improved Chieftain's ability to cross obstacles, rather than make it faster.

However, the Chieftain seems to me to be consistently a bit faster in SABOW, and if they moved so fast in GT:OS I would leave it at that. I tried copying tabs.flatdata from SABOW to GT:OS in place of the GT:OS file of that name; this messed up some command icons but the Chieftains were still crawling.

The entries I posted above from tabs.flatdata are from GT:OS/data/k43/ma_gerat/shared_data/tabs.flatdata (in file techn_base_mtc80.loc_def.config).

Those mod entries definitely look promising, will give them a try!
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For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
h0nky542
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 9


« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 08:44:28 PM »

I altered the linked config, changing only these values:-

Code:
j[v] = 269300, 302600, 76900, 0;
engine_m[f] = 540;
min_w[f] = 500;

You obviously will have to update a copy of your tabs.flatdata, but I expect that will be easy enough for you.
techn_base_mtc80.loc_def.zip   25.37 KB
http://depositfiles.com/files/abtlb03es

See what you think!
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33lima
Oberst
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Posts: 265



« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 09:32:32 PM »

Hey, that's very good of you! Will give it a try, thanks!!!
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For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
davidx
Hauptmann
***
Posts: 30


« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 07:40:20 PM »

Hello,

did you have any luck or success trying to get the chieftains to be more responsive for the player?

regards
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33lima
Oberst
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Posts: 265



« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 07:56:29 PM »

The difference was small but yes I think there was a speed improvement. However, interest waned when I discovered that the Soviets had wasted their roubles on the T-62, as the T-55 (Graviteam version anyway) happily makes mincemeat of Chieftain, when other factors are equal. Sad

Don't want to be the GT:OS equivalent of a Luftwhiner, but this is not just my impression, from reports I have read. Set up a quick battle for yourself and see if you get a different result. Even giving the Chieftains a skill advantage doesn't seem to help much or at all, they get taken to the cleaners, suffering heavier losses.

I understand some armies didn't buy T-62 in part because better ammo appeared for the T-55, and that the latter has good basic qualities (apart from low cost) but really...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 11:34:12 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
Tanker
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Posts: 1086

BRING BACK MARKERS


« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 03:11:43 PM »

Luftwhiner, that's an interesting term.  Smiley Where did that come from?
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33lima
Oberst
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Posts: 265



« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2017, 05:52:24 PM »

Luftwhiner, that's an interesting term.  Smiley Where did that come from?

Il-2 Sturmovik. I believe it was/is applied to those who claimed/believed that the Russian-made sim made Soviet planes better than they were, in comparison to their Luftwaffe opponents. Less of an issue now that IL-2's finally been well modded and does a decent job of the ETO.

I need to do a bit more playtesting in GT:OS - most of my time ATM is going on a mod for good ol' Panzer Elite - but in the last couple of Chieftain -v- T-55 face-offs, the former seemed very reluctant even to move, at any speed. It's like their crew skill level - or mine! - is stuck at 'Imbecile' level. Then when the rounds start flying - oh dear!

I suppose it's hard to make judgements based on a few quick battles which pitch one group against the other head on and require you to have one halted and the other  moving over open ground towards it to get a contact. Still, it does seem that under any given circumstances Chieftains are (a) slow (b) reluctant to get and keep moving and (c) very likely to come off worse-to-much-worse against T-55s, in any given set-up. A quick look at the Chieftain armor values in GT:OS makes me wonder if the weaker lower hull front is the weak link and hit regularly, or if adequate allowance is made for the better-shaped or protected frontal aspects. Or maybe the T-55s have the more modern ammo that helped persuade some users they didn't need to upgrade to the pricey T-62 (and a fire control system to match). I'm all for giving Soviet armour its dues but I'm just not sure about this.
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For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
33lima
Oberst
******
Posts: 265



« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2017, 07:34:45 PM »

Well, the more I see of this, the more I'm thinking of donning the mantle of a Chiefiewhiner, or whatever the word is for the GT:OS equivalent of a Luftwhiner, for someone who sadly believes that the GT:OS Chieftain has been nerfed, compared not just to Soviet tanks, but to any tanks. Maybe the AI can't cope with driving or shooting with the Chieftain, I dunno.

Latest try out was three platoons of T-55s set to attack three defending platoons, two up and one back in depth. One of the forward platoons was Chieftains, the other M60A1s, all in tank scrapes.



Both sides set to veteran skill level. Terrain was Zhalanashkol which is sort of rolling, barren heathland.

The T-55s hadn't showed up after several minutes (they did offer a ceasfire though!) so I gave each of the two forward troops identical orders to attack a point a few hundred meters to their front.

The M60A1s backed out of their scrapes and were soon moving forward, not terribly fast but doing as they were bid.

The Chieftains, just a couple of hundred metres to the south and in apparently identical terrain, got no-where. Every so often, one of the four would try to back out of its scape, cover a few yards, and lurch to a halt. Pathetic. You can see the M60A1s on the skyline moving forward and doubtless feeling smug.



Tends to confirm the picture that is building up.

IIRC this is the slightly-modded Chiefie so i need to test un-modified again, tho this only started because I was already seeing this sort of behaviour.

EDIT - repeated mission with the stock files restored. Moved the two forward platoons a little closer together to reduce the liklihood of terrain factors being a factor. Same miserable performance from the Chieftains, which failed to make it out of their scrapes, while the M60s did and moved ahead fairly smartly. The GT:OS Chieftains are beyond hopeless as regards mobility and are consistently out-shot by T-55s Sad
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 08:00:20 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
33lima
Oberst
******
Posts: 265



« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2017, 08:35:29 AM »

Further test, stock files, same scenario,  except the M60s and chieftains are attacking so do not start in tank scrapes. Both Chieftain troops/platoons and the M60 platoon ordered to attack a point about 300m ahead.

The M60s do so.

The Chieftains hardly move at all. There's some short moves - a few yards - by individual tanks but this soon stops.

Looking at the row of icons that appear for each tank when their unit is active and you click on an individual vehicle, I noticed the icon on the left shows the Chieftains are all 'immob[ilised]'!

I managed to get one to move and be 'Intact' for a while by ordering reverse, at which point the Chieftain popped smoke, backed up about 75m (moving more briskly in reverse than I have seen Chieftains move forwards, and without the usual halts every few feet!)  and then halting. Giving it anothert move or attack order quickly resulted in its status being reset to immobilised.

None of the Chieftains look even slightly bogged down or stuck at any sort of obstacles.The M60s close by have no problems at all.

There's something VERY badly wrong with the GT:OS Chieftain, at the very least when the unit is under player control. Next test will be to reverse the scenario and see if pure AI control works any better.


EDIT - humble pie time for me, a slice at any rate. After another quick battle in SABOW and deciding that the SABOW Chieftains were definitely moving reasonably well, esepcially if not restricted to a defined formation...



...I decided to have another look at the GT:OS files. It seems I left some modded file(s) in there so did a more careful cleanup/restoration to the originals. Now in a QB the GT:OS Chiefies are moving fine, as per SABOW. No inexplicable sudden immobilisations either.

Chieftain still seems overly vulberable to T-55s head to head - I shudder to think what T-62s would do to them, without Stillbrew - so maybe the earlier WARPAC tank has the souped up AP rounds. But at least they are no longer expensive pillboxes after the first few moments.
 


Wrong forum, but what a wonderful tanksim SABOW is! It fair cries out for more content and or more modability, specifically playable MBTs and more mainstream theatres.



And of course a tanksim mode for GT:OS or GT:MF would be equally welcome, especially as the latter has at long last branched out from the Eastern Front.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 10:34:18 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
h0nky542
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 9


« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2017, 12:15:06 PM »

Seen this?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/275290/discussions/0/1496741765135436184/
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33lima
Oberst
******
Posts: 265



« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 08:50:58 PM »

Many thanks for the pointer, Honky - will definitely give this a try!  My own effort seemed to make little or no difference to Chieftain mobility. All the better if this mod means kill ratios are less skewed in favour of WARPAC MBTs, too.

Edit - mobility-wise, this works a treat! My GT:OS Chieftains now move at at what look to be realistic speeds, and don't huff and sit in a corner. They are still T-55 fodder in a fight though, which I'm not sure reflects real Iran-Iraq war experience, where to quote ex-tankie Dick Taylor in Haynes's Chiefie book, the 115mm APFSDS was much the main killer, and that it was believed that most kills were abandoned first then hit at close range. I know T-55 had many good qualities and they (possibly even 'Monkey Model' export customers) got more modern rounds over time but the Iraqi ones seem to be supertanks in GT:OS.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 08:50:43 PM by 33lima » Logged

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country!" when the guns begin to shoot!
'Tommy', Rudyard Kipling, 1892
h0nky542
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 9


« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2018, 09:29:32 PM »

Glad it has helped 33lima.   I see that there has been more work done on it to make it a bit more T55 resistant.
Not had much time to test it tho Sad
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