Kursk/Prokhorovka map (beta) for SF1942 with SPM 1.5 mod

[peashooter1]

Hi nodlew,
In Rends defense he has told me personally he would love to have infantry/AT's/motars etc in his missions. But he also explained some limitations that the game has with missions and why it isn't all possible.....yet. He decided on the best compromise to give us some pure real tank on tank missions which I think we can all agree is superb (remember these are just single missions, not a campaign). Also Rends has not been at this very long. If you have played his first public mission (which is in SPM 1.5 beta in the single missions) you will agree he has come a long way in a very short time. To have your first public mission included by the SPM authors in SPM 1.5 speaks volumes in my book. And this is just the begining for Rends, I look for some amazing stuff from him to come our way in the future. Now nodlew what I'm about to say I don't want you to take the wrong way because this isn't a slam. But guys like Rends and frinik have taken the time, learned the tutorials and produced missions which not many have done (here in the west anyway). But I have seen that you said you made a gunnery range, so apparently you understand the process of making missions. So in all honesty I would love to try something you would/could make for SFK42. Please don't take this as a put up or shut up challange. The mission and campaign designers are a small group here and any new talent I'm sure would be most welcome 
Cheers

[nodlew]

But guys like Rends and frinik have taken the time, learned the tutorials and produced missions which not many have done (here in the west anyway).

Yes, and I have been playing this game for about 3 days and I am intent on doing the same. And when I do, I would hope that people will play the missions that I make and then, having played those missions will provide their reactions to those missions, be they positive, negative, or indifferent. I should hope that when they provide their feedback that they shall do so in a Sportsman-like manner, which I have attempted to do. No where in my comments will you find anything that could be mistaken for non-constructive or mean-spirited feedback. But as they have put hours into making the missions, I have put hours into playing them, and have earned the right to a Reaction. If such reactions are not welcomed here, then I will not provide them in the future, though I think this will make for a very stagnant and silent atmosphere on this forum.

I await further feedback.

P.S.--What limitations with the infantry? I know they aren't very smart, but if you stick them in there they at least provide something of a speedbump for advancing tanks. As far as I have seen, given my very limited experience, the infantry works rather well. Surprisingly life-like in their movements most of the time, and it is possible to have a large population of them and not bog the game down to unplayability.

[Rends]

...Don't get me wrong, it's a beautifully made mission. But the Russians got shafted in the first mission, I think. This is Kursk. Those enemy tanks should have to navigate mine-fields, and the Russians should have an AT gun behind every tree. There should be more infantry, more trenches, more tank traps, maybe more Russian artillery. I mean, I don't want it to be easy. Of course not. But if you just let the game run and watch what happens the German force wipes the Russians completely out and takes very few casualties.

First, i have to say thank you for your feedback. Now to the facts. Russians still outnumber the germans on the map. And yes the daytime mission is a bit onesided and letting play AI only will always end in a german victory. But i was killed often enough driving a Tiger or Panther so it´s still fun. Russian side is way more challenging. As a casual player i have hard time to survive in a T-34 and i´m a looser in the Su-122. The evening mission is more balanced and i could win/loose playing booth sides. Well i find winning in a StugIII a bit harder todo than in a T-34. But overall tank losses / kill ratio seems to be somewhat historical correct.
Keep also in mind that the SF map size is 2x2km. Even if i would have filled the inner devensive line with at guns infantry tanks or whatever. It would be still in german gunrange before russians will fire there first shot. Believe me i had the stuff in during beta tests but i followed a beta tester suggestion to split the mission into 2 for framerate and gameplay reasons. So i made the german daytime attack and the following russian counterattack at evening.
You ask for more stuff on the map. Well SF doesn´t run that well on my 2.26 C2D Intel cpu. That´s because the game doesn´t support multicore cpu. So i will always make missions that will run on my PC. Adding more stuff esp. infantry on this map kills frametrate or in other words make low fps even more lower. Next problem. Infantry destroy the key factor on this map. Tank battles. AI gunner doesn´t decide between  harmless enemy infantry 200m away or enemy tank 500m away. Instead of attacking the more important tank AI sometimes goes for shooting the infantry first. Next thing adding more different units will end in a bluescreen on my end.
One thing i learned is that SPM1.5 units doesn´t support LOD so the engine have to render the hires model with hires textures at all distances.
So what you get is more or less the max i call playable on my map. and from some readings on the different boards there are lot of people in the same boat. But there must be still about 60 tanks at one time on the map at 10 different types if i remember right.

Rends

PS: waiting for some nice maps from you. There is definitly a lack of map and mission builders in the SF community.

[Mistwalker]

Нi evr. i'm one of the spm 1.5 creators (i.e. my work is most of the shell and gun config tweaks, tigers, panther, is-2, ferdinand, kv-2, t34 with a new turret, 85mm AA). Just found a forum with foreign gamers who's playing the mod and decided to register. So if any of you have questions or bug reports, please feel free to ask.  

[Stig]

Great discussions forming here, glad to see there's still some life in this community.

About "playbalancing"... I say stick to history. Never design missions to be "even Stephen" if history dictates that it should be "mission impossible". As long as the briefing perhaps identifies missions with a very low probability of success, then I think it's fine.

Sometimes, running away and living to fight another day is a victory, if you can get a few cheap hit and run brewups before you take the better part of valor. The player should not be expected to carry the field and win the day every time. A good sim will find a way to work that into the game play.

Things I find more worrisome are the posts I've been reading suggesting some possible, erm, inaccuracies in certain German guns and in armor ratings that inexplicably seem to benefit the Russian side. I applaud the people who are willing to get into the source files, run over them with a fine toothed comb and ferret out even the faint whiff of BIAS. I HATE bias in sims. Just get the numbers right for EVERYONE and let the chips fall where they may.

[nodlew]

Russians still outnumber the germans on the map.

That is true, if you count a Tiger as one tank, a Ferdinand as one SPGun, etc. In reality, from what I've seen, one AI Tiger is worth at least five AI T-34s, and usually, without some intervention by the player, it can be worth eventually much more--10 T-34s. A Tiger (or Elefant) can often keep shooting T-34s until it runs out of ammo, which in the case of the AI Tigers is, as Frinik has pointed out, Never! And that's just one Tiger. Panthers are not as durable--very vulnerable side armor as modeled currently--but they are one-shot, one-kill vehicles against pretty much any Russian tank. One AI Panther is worth at least 3 AI T-34s. So, by this logic, given the forces arrayed, the Germans massively out number the Russians.

Ok, so that mirrors reality. I'll buy that.

Even if i would have filled the inner defensive line with at guns infantry tanks or whatever. It would be still in German gun range before Russians will fire there first shot.

Yeah that's true--I know cause I have added some Russian AT Guns, mostly 76 and 45mm with a couple of 85mm hvy guns. And they take fire right off the bat, but...they give good account of themselves. They might take out, or immobilize a German tank before being destroyed, and they draw fire in the first moments of the battle. The 85s seem to do a good job of target prioritizing--I think they concentrate on the big Ger tanks first.

I didn't know about your frame-rate issues. That explains the infantry.

I filled the trenches with infantry, and they draw fire and slow the Germans down. The Germans still have the upper hand, but it feels like I am at least fighting in a prepared defense line. And the infantry can take out a tank or two with grenades. Don't know if the AT rifles do anything at all. I've never confirmed a tank destroyed or immobilized by an AT rifle. I think they mostly do squat, which is realistic. Now when we get the Panzershrek in-game, those things will make infantry something to be feared at close range, at least on the German side. The only real problem I have with the infantry's AT capacity is they are just too accurate and too fast and too well armed with those AT grenades. It is funny to see them windmilling their arms throwing grenade after grenade with pinpoint accuracy.

So, I have added all of these things, infantry and AT Guns, and they don't seem to upset the balance of the mission very much. The Germans still plow forward and blast everything in sight.

Speaking of AT guns, I find them to work very well in the game. They are aggressive and accurate, with a high rate of fire, and very vulnerable to retaliatory fire. In the mission I'm working on right now, I have a small village with infantry, AT guns in defilade, overwatched by two 85mm at guns on a hill. The Germans mount a frontal assault from the far ridge-line, having to cross a broad, open field. I had it set up at first with German Stugs, Pz iiis, and Brumbars. I thought they could attack by fire from range, but the AT guns cut them to pieces. The Brumbars especially. The Stugs get nailed in the tracks while driving around like idiots and become cannon fodder. To balance things, I had to give the Germans some big sp guns--Jagdpanthers right now, might change it. Now they draw the fire, which they can pretty much absorb, and the Russian AT guns are destroyed by return fire from the 88s.

Balance is very hard. Those 88s are real killers. I have four platoons of Russian tanks--two platoons of 85s and two of js2s--rushing to the rescue. They arrive and are destroyed in very short order by the two Tigers and the three Jagdpanthers which have waded through everything in their path and are now sitting in the middle of the village surrounded by dead Russians. Like Frinik has said elsewhere, the rate of fire of those 88s is absurdly high, turning anything armed with an 88 into a super-death machine. The only way to counter it is give the Russians more tanks, but then again, by chance, the tide could go the other way very easily. Disable a couple big German tanks before they are in good position, and a large portion of the German firepower is eliminated from the equation and the Soviets clean-up.

I just wish the historical values of the machines were accurate. I hate having to write missions in such a way as to compensate for bullshit.

SPM1.5 units doesn´t support LOD so the engine have to render the hires model with hires textures at all distances

Aha! So that's why when I put the Jagdpanthers in there my frame-rate suddenly got a little slow. Good to know that.

[peashooter1]

Well you asked

Taking a closer look I find that there is NO Russian infantry. The trenches are empty. What happened to to them? Abducted by aliens? Defected? Hauled off by the Secret Police and pressed into Penal Units? I mean, C'mon. And what's up with the final defense line? There is no DEFENSE at the final defense line. No AT guns, no machine guns, no infantry, no mortars, no tanks that wait behind cover in reserve to act as a final...well....DEFENSE I repeat, C'mon!
[/quote]
So where is the constructive criticism?

If I was going to ask about the lack of troops or AT guns in Rends missions (and I fully understand your not me), I would have worded it more like this " Hi Rends, had a question about your Kursk/Prokhorovka map. I noticed there are no infantry in the trenches and AT guns are not present either, why is that"? Rends is a very approchable fellow and I'm sure he would have explained, probably in detail if you PM'ed him.

Like I said earlier my reply was not an attempt at a slam or a 'your views are not welcome here". Thats why I made sure to put that in the body of my reply. Just about every person I have met here are good blokes and I'm sure your one too. And I honestly did mean what I said about if you design any missions/campaigns I would love to try them. I'm sure everyone here would. I did not flippently add this as a sugar coating for something mean sprited. Truthfully I would love to have that gunnery range you designed. I have always wanted to try the manual range finder in these tanks, but it's kind of hard to hone that skill while your under attack  . But if took my reply as an attack of some kind, I apologize, it was never my intention. And I know I forgot to say this earlier but Welcome to the Graviteam Forums nodlew 

[peashooter1]

Нi evr. i'm one of the spm 1.5 creators (i.e. my work is most of the shell and gun config tweaks, tigers, panther, is-2, ferdinand, kv-2, t34 with a new turret, 85mm AA). Just found a forum with foreign gamers who's playing the mod and decided to register. So if any of you have questions or bug reports, please feel free to ask.  

Hi Mistwalker,
Happy to see another of the SPM creators here at the Graviteam Forums, Welcome!
I know one contention in the SPM 1.5 beta has been dealing with the new armor units added in SPM 1.5 beta and the accuracy of the cannons (as in hitting power) and the ballistics/weights of the rounds they use, I think armor protection was another and probably some preformance issues for these new units. I know a few guys here have been doing some serious research into this and I hope they see your post since your the man I'm sure they would love to talk too.
Cheers

[nodlew]

Ok, Peashooter. I understand that you are offended on Rend's behalf because I had the temerity to put a little personality into my posted reply. I shalll endeavor in the future to remove all evidence from my posts that I possess a human psyche complete with emotions, a sense of humor, and I shall never again dare to include a teasing note seeing as you find it so potentially hurtful to the members of this forum. If that will finally satisfy you, perhaps we can let the matter drop, as no one else seems offended or to have taken my meaning any way other than intended--Rend himself has responded and explained his intentions in making the mission very clearly. 

If you remain concerned that my verbiage may (even unintentionally) betray a spark of LIFE and in so doing cause injury to your flock, then I perhaps I should submit anything I am thinking about posting to the forums to you--email? IM? for censorship so that you can make sure that there is nothing left of Me in there all of it having been replaced by the ever so more inoffensive You. Please take note that this last offer is not very well disguised SARCASM and that there is even a dose of SARCASM in the above as well. And if you persist in giving me a hard time over what I perceive to be Your Problem, I can only believe that future responses may only become more and more SARCASTIC until you leave me alone about it.

I like to think of myself as a good guy, and everyone else here seems to be very nice--including you, Peashooter, Old Bean.. But, for God's sake, we are talking about a mission scripted for a game, not the goddamn prophet Mohamed. And if you can't have a little fun when you are talking about a damn game, then...what's the point in playing a game? I mean, Peashooter, 'CMON!

There is always a little bit of a touchy  period when getting involved with a new Forum. I have been through it numerous times and I have on occasion, failed the application process. Gloriously so on occasion--I used to drink, a lot. You think I'm a pain in the ass now? God, you should have known me then. If I am offending you now, sober, I am afraid in the end you people are just going to have to get rid of me. Because this is about as inoffensive as I ever get.


You are welcome to my Gunnery range mission. I have a Mediafire site and after some tweaking I will upload it there and post a link. I need to have the vehicles at exact ranges from each other--500 m, 1000 m, 1500 m, 2000 m, and need to have more types of vehicles and I need to find a way to make the ones that I don't have empty examples of stay still and not fight back and I need to make it playable from both the German and Russian sides with a quick change in the editor, and make it JSGME ready. I will have it ready by tomorrow.

And having played it, I invite you to tell me how I might improve it--hell, I might learn something. And you should if you take the time and care to do so, I would appreciate it if you should include adjectives. And if you have a strong reaction, you might want to use bold type to indicate it. If you have a sly comment, a wry comment, or a note of irony to be expressed, I invite you to avail yourself of italics. If you particularly like or dislike an element of it, I shall not be averse to your inclusion of an Exclamation Point! And you may do so here on the forums for all to see and I will be happy as a clam.

[peashooter1]

  You know what nodlew, just forget I ever replied to your post 
Cheers

[nodlew]

Done.

[Stig]

nodlew and peashooter...

Hug it out, gents. I do think we're all on the same team here...

I happen to agree more with nodlew, as I have in other communities been ostracized (and worse) for simply having an opinion. I know how hard it can be to come to grips with The Thin-skinned... and with The Grateful (those who are happy to get anything, regardless of quality, and are offended at the very idea of critical thinking or feedback, as they feel it equates to biting the hand that feeds you).

PEACE (at least in the forums...)

[nodlew]

Thank you, Stig. I needed that bit of support. I want peace too. I am in no way a troll come to sit under this bridge, but a die-hard tank-sim fan and an armor fanatic since I was four years old. One of my fondest memories is the night Mom and Dad let me stay up to watch Patton on TV. I wasn't in school yet--but I loved tanks. Tanks and Ultra-Man.

And Peashooter is entirely entitled to the opinion that I expressed myself badly--I just happen to disagree. I don't think I said anything that was in any way negative at all. I went out of my way to praise Rend's work--which is deserving of praise. I was just losing as the Russians and was shocked to discover that I had no infantry in my trenches. I didn't know about his frame-rate and blue-screen problems. I made a joke. And dammit, I am not going to take it back. If Rend had expressed that he felt slighted, I would have apologized at once and explained myself. But I am not going to apologize to a third party to the discussion who wishes I that I talked more like him.

And that is probably more than enough said about the matter. What I will apologize to Peashooter for, is for failing to make more of an effort to be conciliatory to his view. I am occasionally a bit full of myself, that is true, and I do not always put forth the maximum effort to achieve utter placidity. I get riled-up, and I like a good verbal exchange. But then, I was the one who was being brought to task, however gently. I am a 44 year old man, not some 14-year-old kid with a wise mouth and his head up his ass, and if you mean to take me to task then you had better bring some ammunition along with you. In other words, you had better be right, or I am going to defend myself.