New Armour maps for Tiger I and Panther D by Natalia99

[frinik]

  Hi Guys, I just would like to draw your attention to the fact that finally sombody has dare tackle on my biggst grief in SF; the unusual propensity of some tanks, the Panther D in particular, to experience a disabled gun during missions.This has happened ot me frequently and regularly.AS well with the Panzer IVF2 to a lesser degree( particulalrly during missions with airstrikes), the Tiger I and II.I am sure it happened during WWII but certainly not as much as in this sim.I remeber playing the Panzer IV Petrovka mission in which you gte pummlled by IL-2s and having to scrap the mission 3 times in a row after having gun damage.... Th Panther because of its sloped amrour seems prone to it more frequently than other models .

Natalia99 kindly undertook reviewing the armour maps for some models and found gaps and errors which she corrected.She also increased the thickness of the gun armour and offered me the new amrour maps for testing and personal use.After nearly 2 weeks I can say that the problem has been largely corrected.She is currently working on fixing the Tiger II and Panzer IVF2 armour maps and guns as well.

I believe that this along with Scotty's broken gunsight fix and other fixes the MG34 etc is worth having included in any future SF mod or release. I know Mistwalker is working on a Realism Mod in order to correct some blatant errors and glitches in SF and this would fit well with his mod.Likewise it would be worth being included in NTA1.3 or NTA 1.4 whatever the case may be.The new map have no adverse effects on your game and do not create any conflict or problems.I have thme on all my installs without .Thus I can say with soem authority that they are worth adding .

Any comments or feedback?Lockie, Mistwalker, Kyth?

And all my appreciation to Natalia99 for the job well done and the guts to take it on

 

[Rends]

Nice to hear

[Kyth]

Sounds great.... where is it? 

[frinik]

  I have them which why after testing them to see if there were any problems I am announcing them to the community. IWhat I could do Kyth is email them to you so they can be downloaded from your rapidshare SF resources page if it's Ok with you?

[Kyth]

Sure, no problem 

[Mistwalker]

  Hi Guys, I just would like to draw your attention to the fact that finally sombody has dare tackle on my biggst grief in SF; the unusual propensity of some tanks, the Panther D in particular, to experience a disabled gun during missions.This has happened ot me frequently and regularly.AS well with the Panzer IVF2 to a lesser degree( particulalrly during missions with airstrikes), the Tiger I and II.I am sure it happened during WWII but certainly not as much as in this sim.

The question is: are you totally sure? For example can you say that shell fragments and explosion of 122-mm AP on the front armor of Tiger 2 won't damage the gun?

I know Mistwalker is working on a Realism Mod in order to correct some blatant errors and glitches in SF and this would fit well with his mod.

Really? I'm working on something like that?   

Any comments or feedback?Lockie, Mistwalker, Kyth?

I just wonder what needs fixing in those armor maps? Are you sure you aren't fixing that isn't broken?
To increase thickness of gun armor is a bad move. the gun won't be damaged by direct shell hits that should damage it.

[Kyth]

Hi everyone,

As requested, here's a link to the armour maps. Install them in JSGME and give them a try:

http://www.4shared.com/file/rvV-OdrW/NewArmor_gunfix.html

...end of commercial. 

[frinik]

Really? I'm working on something like that?   

Quote
 
Well Mistwalker my assumption was that your realism mod was meant to address the lack of realism in some areas of SF? I call it fixing glitches or errors? Sorry if my choice of words is wrong....

To me having repeated gun damage for no good reason is much more irritating and unrealistic and it's worth adding a few millimetres to a gun to make it a bit more robust!

Anyway nobody is forced to use the new armour maps.

Hopefully Natalia herself can give you more details as to what she fixed and what needed mending in those maps!

She's working on the Panzer IV and Tiger II armours as well!

Cheers

[natalia99a]

It was never my intention to make the gun barrels immune to damage, they in fact still get damaged from a direct shell hit. near by shells hitting the ground and grenades kept disabling my main gun seemed a bit ridiculous, especially after the battle where no hits were even recorded to the gun. I have seen several instances of ww2 tanks with barrels that appear to have some shell damage to the gun and seemed to be in working order.

As for fixing things not broken, I fixed the paper gun problem, I found many areas that were not properly covered possibly due to them being painted in a hurry? and a few minor thickness issues.

This wasn't made with the intention that I'm all knowing and everyone else is wrong, I read a lot before I did anything since the last thing I wanted to do was add to the many historical errors already in the game.

This is simply for people tired of restarting constantly due to guns being disabled, if you aren't bothered by this then you can disregard it.

[Kyth]

I agree that gun-hits should be rarer than they are in the game.
Just from observation alone, the main gun presents a very small cross-section head-on, and even from the side they'd be a curved (or 'sloped') target. And they're built strong enough to withstand their own projectiles hurtling through them, in rapid succession.

From my POV, any fix that reduces the probability to a more realistic level is most welcome,

[frinik]

  Thanks Natalia and Kyth for setting the record straight!

Now to set the record straight as well, I wish to remind that all mods, missions, fixes that benefit the entire SF community are the result of the hard work and generosity of dedicated people like Kyth, Natalia, Rends, Scotty, Lockie, Whukid, Lacjak etc and the group of Russian/Ukrainian modders on the Sukhoi forum who are willing to share the fruits of their labour with all of us! They are not obliged to do it  and we should be grateful and appreciative that they agreed to tackle things nobody else was willing to do.Nobody is obliged to use their work if one feels that it doesn't suit his own taste or interest!

[Mistwalker]

Well Mistwalker my assumption was that your realism mod was meant to address the lack of realism in some areas of SF? I call it fixing glitches or errors? Sorry if my choice of words is wrong....

It's just the new version of SPM NTA fix already released in russian.

It was never my intention to make the gun barrels immune to damage

But you came close to it. With 110 mm thick barrel only 85 and 122 mm guns will be able to damage it. Although in reality even 14 mm antitank rifle is able to make hole in 88-mm gun.

I have seen several instances of ww2 tanks with barrels that appear to have some shell damage to the gun and seemed to be in working order.

Ok, show me examples.

As for fixing things not broken, I fixed the paper gun problem, I found many areas that were not properly covered possibly due to them being painted in a hurry? and a few minor thickness issues.

Congratulations, you just fixed what wasn't broken. I won't count gun thickness (although there are some minor details that use the same place on UV as gun and so you set wrong armor for those as well), but, as to the Tiger:

1. Why did you remove hole for machinegun in the front plate?
2. Why did you made driver's front plate 199 mm thick when in it was really only 102 mm thick?
3. Why did you make gunmask 110 mm thick, when in reality it was 97-mm thick cast armor = about 90 mm rolled armor?
4. Why did you make the front wheel 110 mm thick when drawings show nothing near that value?
5. Why did you make bolted part on the mask around the gun 110 mm thick when it can even hardly be considered as armor?

As to the Panther:

1. Again you haven't taken into account that gunmask had cast armor and was thinner at upper and lower ends and fixed what doesn't need to be fixed.
2. Why did you make forward wheel protection 110 mm thick?

[lockie]

Perhaps, it'll be interesting. As for gun damage barrel there is a short fragment from the book by Otto Carius “Tigers in mud”.
Report by Hauptmann Lange the 2nd company 502 Pz.Abt
January 29, 1943
Russian anti-tank gun model 42 penetrated armor at the depth to 17 mm, as it was established as a result the measurement of the front inclined armor plate before the driver place. This anti-tank gun was encountered fairly often and it was possible to learn it on the salient muzzle flash.
The bullets of anti-tank guns usually strike in the region of observation slits. One time entry in the jacket of the barrel 88-mm gun (probably, from 45- mm of anti-tank rifle) formed a strong dent in the jacket of barrel and very insignificant dent inside the gun barrel. Since the crew did not know that the gun barrel was damaged, it continued shooting uninterruptedly.

same in russian
     Гауптман Ланге
     2-я рота
     502-го батальона тяжелых танков
     29 января 1943 года

Русское противотанковое ружье  модели  42 пробивало броню на глубину до
17  мм,  как  было  установлено  в  результате  замера переднего  наклонного
броневого листа перед местом водителя. Это противотанковое ружье встречалось
довольно часто,  и его можно было узнать по  выдающемуся дульному пламени. В
одном случае косой  удар пришелся  по передней  смотровой щели  командирской
башенки.  Ее  угол откололся  и срикошетил,  приведя в  состояние негодности
смотровой  прибор  "Кинон".  [286]  Результат  прямого  попадания:
вероятность пробивания.  Пули противотанковых ружей обычно ударяют в области
смотровых щелей. Один раз попадание в кожух ствола 88-мм пушки (вероятно, из
45-мм  противотанкового орудия) образовал сильную  выбоину в кожухе ствола и
очень незначительную выбоину внутри ствола орудия. Поскольку расчет не знал,
что ствол орудия поврежден, он продолжал вести огонь без перерыва.

[Mistwalker]

The bullets of anti-tank guns usually strike in the region of observation slits. One time entry in the jacket of the barrel 88-mm gun (probably, from 45- mm of anti-tank rifle) formed a strong dent in the jacket of barrel and very insignificant dent inside the gun barrel. Since the crew did not know that the gun barrel was damaged, it continued shooting uninterruptedly.

That is not a good example.

[lockie]

That is not a good example.

The barrel was damaged and I gave an example. Was it good or not I didn't know. As I told above, it would be interested.

[natalia99a]

Mistwalker

To questions 1 and 2, it seemed to me that the first thing penetrated on the model was the only thing counted for damage, so keeping the hole behind the machine gun didn't seem to be a big deal. same on drivers front plate, I wanted the combined armor to be taken into account, I did leave the view slit. If I am in error I will correct it.

To question 2    http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/18120-armor-thickness-and-gun-mantlets/  if you can provide blueprints from Henschel & Son that prove otherwise I will happily use them.

To question 4 the front wheel being armored was unintentional, it shared the same map as part of the barrel but since the track has always (at least for me) been what gets destroyed and not the wheel I didn't think it a problem.

To question 4  Yes I realize that it is simply a flange and looks quite thin in photos, but making it that thin would have defeated the entire purpose of making the barrel stronger.

The panther

To question 1   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank)  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PantheraScheme.jpg)

again show me design schematics and I will gladly alter it.

To qustion 2   I loaded the skin up in Object editor to verify that the front wheel protection was 100mm, the only thing I see is a thin strip on the left edge of the wheel protection that wouldn't save the tank if it was set to 255.

to address these heavily armored parts, I will try setting guns to 50mm and see if that still works.


As I said earlier, I am not all knowing and am working with old and probably in some cases inaccurate data. unfortunately the ones that truly know are nearly all lost to time. It would be great if the actual schematics could be made available, but sadly I don't see that happening.

Mistwalker if you have better sources I would be grateful (and I'm sure everyone else would be as well) if you could share them. I am always willing to learn more, and NEVER have I tried to push anything I learn as the one definitive truth, whether it be in sims or in Rl.

But for now everyone knows exactly what is changed, if they want stronger guns they know the tradeoff and are still free to use or not use the armor_maps.

[frinik]

Did I see a tennis ball whoozing onto Mistwalker's court???

[Mistwalker]

To questions 1 and 2, it seemed to me that the first thing penetrated on the model was the only thing counted for damage

You're wrong. The shell in game can easily penetrate as much parts as you want (if it has enough power of course).

To question 2    http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/18120-armor-thickness-and-gun-mantlets/  if you can provide blueprints from Henschel & Son that prove otherwise I will happily use them.

The blueprints of gunmask (reinforced at the gunsight apertures, introduced on 41st vehicle) are right on previous page. We only need to measure it. According to the book "The Tiger Tank: A British view" armor of gunmask varied between 97 mm in thinnest part to 200 mm in thickest part (it's most likely where the mask attached to the turret). 

To question 4 the front wheel being armored was unintentional, it shared the same map as part of the barrel but since the track has always (at least for me) been what gets destroyed and not the wheel I didn't think it a problem.

The wheel can protect side armor in some cases.

To question 4  Yes I realize that it is simply a flange and looks quite thin in photos, but making it that thin would have defeated the entire purpose of making the barrel stronger.

This thing isn't part of the gun, this is part of the mask.

The panther
To question 1   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank)  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PantheraScheme.jpg)
again show me design schematics and I will gladly alter it.

Sure.

You can clearly see that  gunmask is not thicker than front turret armor and its lower and upper ends are thinner than middle.
And again - cast armor is used for gunmask of both Tiger and Panther. It's weaker than rolled by 8 to 15 percent.

To qustion 2   I loaded the skin up in Object editor to verify that the front wheel protection was 100mm, the only thing I see is a thin strip on the left edge of the wheel protection that wouldn't save the tank if it was set to 255.

Then why did you set it to 110?

Mistwalker if you have better sources I would be grateful (and I'm sure everyone else would be as well) if you could share them.

"Germany's Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy" by T. L. Jentz
"Germany's Tiger Tanks: D.W. to Tiger I, Design, Production & Modifications" by T. L. Jentz, Hilary L. Doyle
"Germany's Tiger Tanks: VK45.02 to Tiger II" by T. L. Jentz, Hilary L. Doyle
"Panther and it's variants" by W. Spielberger
"Der Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten" by W. Spielberger
"The Tiger Tank: A British view" edited by David Fletcher

Next time before you try to fix something you think is wrong - try to ask someone or read more books, not forums and wikipedia.

But for now everyone knows exactly what is changed, if they want stronger guns they know the tradeoff and are still free to use or not use the armor_maps.

I think a problem with weak guns is overhyped a little. And it's not likely that it happens in some cases because of weak armor protection.
Here's some screens (default armor maps):


The gun isn't damaged even with 10 hits to the front plate an hit to the gun itself.



Again the gun isn't damaged.
An so I don't think it's nessesary to include those armor maps in future SPM updates.

[lockie]

As far as I know, there is a  pattern "p_rotgun", which is responsible for the gun rotation.

Which is described in the files:
...\levels\levels\tech_cfg\misc\damages.engcfg
...\levels\levels\tech_cfg\misc\damages_light.engcfg
We may create a new pattern, i.e. p_rotgun_panther and make it stronger, means to decrease damage, but it won't affect gun damage, imho.

[frinik]

  I disagree with you Mistwalker as far as gun damage to the Panther ausf D is concerned.The Tiger II is not a major problem and its gun rarely gets out of action.However  with the Panther even shots landing metres in front of the tank have resulted in a disabled gun.I remember scrapping the same mission twice checking for hits and none on the tank or gun except for a crater in front of the tank.I remember seeing the geyser of dirst sprouting up when looking through the gunsight.In many occasion while the gun was facing one side and a shot would ricohcet in the opposite direction when hitting the frontal armour slope my gun would be disabled.Likewise everytime there's an airstrike whatever tank I am driving gets disbabled after a few shots from an aircraft.I know guns can be damaged but not in the proportion I see it happening in this game.

As for the new armour maps I am planning on including them into the compilation of beta 1.5 and NTA 1.3 I ll be working on.Up to people to change them for the original ones if they feel like it.