New Armour maps for Tiger I and Panther D by Natalia99

[Mistwalker]

I disagree with you Mistwalker as far as gun damage to the Panther ausf D is concerned.The Tiger II is not a major problem and its gun rarely gets out of action.However  with the Panther even shots landing metres in front of the tank have resulted in a disabled gun.

I don't think it's problem of gun armor thickness. Either it's a bug of some sort or those shells are powerful - like 122 mm or 152 mm HE. You have the model of Panther where some technical issues are fixed - did you test it with default armor map?

[frinik]

  Yes I did and I experienced the same incidence of damaged gun. You may be right it could be a bug.Yes the 122 mm shells are powerful but landing 5 feet in front of tank and disabling it's gun??Or ricochetting on the tank armour just scratching it and yet managing to disable a gun which was on the opposite side?

What i find contradictory in the game is that by comparison I experience very little incidence of the turret being disabled or jammed by repeated hit which in my opinion should be more frequent as severe hits by shells calibre 85 mm and up should definitely impact on the rotating mechanism of a turret while the incidence of damaged gun is way out of proportion to what it should be...I have been trying to find on the internet an article which would speak about such issues but so far I haven't seen anything .Ifd there's  bug it's in the coding and I am not a programmer so....

There's one are at least where I would need your input/feedback when modifying some of the shell hit values in the common resolution.Your encyclopedic knowledge would come in handy.I'll let you know more a bit later.

[Mistwalker]

  Yes I did and I experienced the same incidence of damaged gun. You may be right it could be a bug.Yes the 122 mm shells are powerful but landing 5 feet in front of tank and disabling it's gun?

Well, fragments of hi-caliber shell have speed about 1500 m/second and can penetrate up to 10 mm armor at 10 m distance.
But in this case it definitely looks like a bug, probably with HE shells. One time I had the entire crew of JS-2 killed by the hit of 75-mm HE shell in the instrument box. 
And I've just checked Panther with new armor map - it doesn't help. Here's the screenshot -  2 from 3 hits  damaged the gun.



Although I suppose I know a good way to keep at least gun damage to minimum.  You have to place actual db_gun inside visual gun model which you should call d_barrel or something. That way db_gun will only be damaged if d_barrel is penetrated. And there's no need to increase armor.

[lockie]

You have to place actual db_gun inside visual gun model which you should call d_barrel or something.

It sounds interesting! Did some1 try this method?

ps
I started to try, BUT db_gun was already hidden in the two visual parts:
db_head -> db_mask.
So, what the third visual part should be? 


pps
What does p_sight do?

[Txema]

Very interesting discussion going on here !!
I hope that a solution will be finally found.
Thank you very much to all the people involved.

Txema

[natalia99a]

Thank You Mistwalker 

As for why I get my information from the internet only, I don't have access or even the time to get books so I do the best with what I have. and since frinik had already been asking about this problem without any solutions being offered, I didn't feel that my questions would be answered and better than his were so I set about trying to fix it to the best of my abilities.

So for the turret would 86mm for gun mask (being weaker than rolled by 8 to 15 percent. maybe go with 11%?) and 100 for turret face be acceptable?

The guns at 50mm seem to do just fine, so until another way is found Ill keep it there for now.

[Wörghern]

Thank you very much for this subject very interesting ! Awesome to see how the engine parameters of SF are very complicated and very detailed ! I hope you'll find the good compromise to deliver us the best gameplay between fun and "authenticity". Don't forget that this is just a game, an incredible game indeed, but not the reality. The way  to make a game accessible and realist is really some art.

keep up the good work !

[frinik]

pps
What does p_sight do?

My guess would be the porthole sight for either commander or gunner???

Jochem this is more thna a mere game it's supposed to be a tank simulator thus we have to simulate as much as we can

[Mistwalker]

Although I suppose I know a good way to keep at least gun damage to minimum.  You have to place actual db_gun inside visual gun model which you should call d_barrel or something. That way db_gun will only be damaged if d_barrel is penetrated. And there's no need to increase armor.

I've tried it and unfortunatelly it doesn't help. So I don't see any solution except to bear with it.

What does p_sight do?

Nothing. It's here because the more small unimportant parts will be separated from main hull and head, the less the probability of the bug when tank can be seriously damaged by a hit at those small parts.

So for the turret would 86mm for gun mask (being weaker than rolled by 8 to 15 percent. maybe go with 11%?) and 100 for turret face be acceptable?

Ok, here it becomes interesting. I've had some doubts after the discussion and decided to measure armor on gunmask drawing myself. 
And it seems that in thinnest part it's really about 100 mm, but average thickness is between 120-130 mm. So taking into account cast armor value of 110 mm  for the mask seems close enough. I've set it to 105 in 1.4.1 NTA update: http://www.mediafire.com/?gslyk9bh2hdz3xi.

The guns at 50mm seem to do just fine, so until another way is found Ill keep it there for now.

It seems it doesn't matter how much armor you put on the gun. It gets damaged by high caliber HE anyway. See my last screenshot above - 110 mm didn't help. So it's pretty much pointless to use armor maps with increased gun thickness.

[Wörghern]

Jochem this is more than a mere game it's supposed to be a tank simulator thus we have to simulate as much as we can

Of course, I hear the passion behind the words and respect your implication and your motivation but I come from the video game industry and I know the limits of the graphics engines. I acknowledge that the sf1942 engine is very powerful; we can do incredible things with. However, a lot of parameters of the real world will escape us a long time !
 

[frinik]

Mistwalker I can report that after installing and testing Natalia's amrour maps I have yet to experiment gun damage.Only one instance and it was a direct shot that hit the gun muzzle!
I am not screaming "victory" just yet and being cautious and empirical before I say " Mission Accomplished! " I'll do further testing but as far as I am concerned I am very satisfied with the results.Her maps have not turned the tanks into Frankenstanks nor have they caused any glitch or crash and in fact have reduced the invcidence of gun damage.What more can I ask ? (OK a million dollars but nobody will give it to me )

So I am looking forward to Natalia's next set of armour maps!

Cheers!

[Kyth]

 

Well then, as I mentioned previously,

If this pans out, I guess Natalia will have our everlasting gratitude... until the next grumble 

[Mistwalker]

Mistwalker I can report that after installing and testing Natalia's amrour maps I have yet to experiment gun damage.

You mean - "to experience"?
I'm not so sure about it. Are you sure you aren't just lucky? Try to test it with old and new armor map and 1.4 NTA installed exactly in the same situation.
I've tested it on my "testing ground" and you can see the result on the last screenshot here. 3 hits by HE and gun damaged 2 times with new armor map. AP shells don't damage the gun even with old armor map.

If it's different for you, can you post some screens where your tank is hit with some 122 mm HE in the front hull and gun isn't damaged?

[natalia99a]

For the first 2 weeks I played this sim, gun damage was so frequent that I nearly shelved the game out of frustration. after armoring the gun it became a very rare thing to have the gun damaged and is still rare even with it set down to 50mm, so either we are lucky or you are cursed. 

[Mistwalker]

For the first 2 weeks I played this sim, gun damage was so frequent that I nearly shelved the game out of frustration. after armoring the gun it became a very rare thing to have the gun damaged and is still rare even with it set down to 50mm, so either we are lucky or you are cursed.

Ok, how about you try this armor map for panther? http://www.mediafire.com/?chd8ftpt8jvgpjr

[frinik]

 Thanks I ll give it a try and compare!!!!

[lockie]

I've idea how to decrease gun damage. Initial model should have two barrels.
1. A real one, which shorter twice and without texture (invisible db_gun, but vs armor map)
2. Fake, with texture and real size(d_burrel, which is children of db_gun and without armor map)
The game will calculate db_gun, which is shorter and thus has less damage.

[frinik]

  How do you do that?

[natalia99a]

WOOHOO go lockie go 

[lockie]

Unfortunately, without initial model of panther I can't do a "gun damage decreasing"
May by the author of model - Mistwalker can try?
Here is idea in editor. U may see a short original gun inside fake d_barrel.