New Armour maps for Tiger I and Panther D by Natalia99

[Kyth]

Hi Natalia,

Looking forward to more of the new armour maps, if you're still working on them,

[frinik]

Kyth as a matter of fact Natalia has been a busy bee reworking some of the armour maps and making them scrupulously as per specifications using German docs and other realiable sourcesI have been using them for " weeks and I am extremely satisfied with themNow no need to up the armour settign to have heavy tanks that can take punishment before being destroyed or disabled. The Tiger I, II, Panther and JS are tough as they were meant and deemed to beand gun damage is rare. I will emailed them to you for uploading and trying them out

Good work Natalia99!Job well done!

Cheers

[Mistwalker]

The Tiger I, II, Panther and JS are tough as they were meant

I suspect that except guns its another "fixing what isn't broken", esp. in JS case. It'd be interesting to look at those new armor maps.

[Kyth]

It'd be interesting to look at those new armor maps.

Maybe you could help, too,

[frinik]

Mistwalker try to keep an open mind! I can understand your scepticism but give Natalia a chance she is undertaking what nobody else has.It's called the pioneer spirit and the willingness to stray off to beaten path ND Tke risk for the benefit of all!!!

Go Natalia go!!!!

[natalia99a]

Yes mistwalker by all means check them out, so far the only 2 that I really have totally complete are the tiger1 & 2 the rest I will finish as time allows. If you look at them you will notice that (besides the barrel) I filled many gaps especially on tiger2 and I have added some depth to the armor plates since they weren't paper thin, and I also added vision slits, machine gun hole in the mantlet. and also giving mantlet more than just a single figure since it had varying thickness. the tiger2 I didn't go into adding the vision slits due to lack of time.
And on barrel armor, I know that it is just a makeshift thing but until I can find where to turn it totally off it will have to do.
I am doing these for fun, and the few people that want them it isn't a conspiracy to make super tanks, I am not secretly adding armor or invulnerable spots and trying to mislead anyone, so if you truly hate what I am doing just don't download it.

and as far as you sniping at me with "fixing what isn't broken" I am adding what was left out. and I am actually trying to help unlike your solution on page 2 "So I don't see any solution except to bear with it."

[Donken]

Im not shure of how damage boxes work, but is it possible to make a 4-sided box on the gun barrel. Make upper and lower side armored really much and make sides different (not so much) so only directhits can take out the gun. I think that making the upper/lower side well armored shouldnt be a problem because i have a hard time to see being shot by other tanks in the underside, it is pretty impossible and also lots of armor = no broken gun with missing/near HE shots.

Or am i high and out flying?

[natalia99a]

Hi Donken, I'm not sure how that would work but any friendly suggestions are welcome since no constructive idea is a bad one

One thing I am in the process of testing is, Lockie pointed out that there is a short barrel inside the outer barrerl so I am going to heavily armor that area. that will leave a hole down the center and (I hope) the barrel pretty much resistant to all but a shot down the barrel. That will be a rare occurrence indeed.

Here is something I found posted on subsim forums that justifies quelling the retarded percentage of barrel damage the game originally has (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147572) it is an interview with Maj Lindemann who commanded 2 companies of tigers at kasserine pass. Of interest is this

"When I asked about main guns being knocked out by enemy fire he looked me like I was nuts and said that he had never heard of it happening although he said he supposed it must have been possible... just an incredibly lucky hit."

I assume the major would know better from actual experience than any sliderule junkie.

[Mistwalker]

Yes mistwalker by all means check them out

And where are they?

If you look at them you will notice that (besides the barrel) I filled many gaps especially on tiger2 and I have added some depth to the armor plates since they weren't paper thin, and I also added vision slits, machine gun hole in the mantlet.

Ugh. I dunno where you found gaps that need to be filled and thin armor plates. Have to look at it.

and as far as you sniping at me with "fixing what isn't broken" I am adding what was left out. and I am actually trying to help unlike your solution on page 2 "So I don't see any solution except to bear with it."

Well, except the barrels it really looks like you're making unnecessary changes for now.
 As to the  barrels - instead of setting 50-100 mm from the start I suggest to increase thickness slowly. Raise it to 30 mm in main part then test on special firing range, then try more if it won't work. See my panther armor map in this thread. So far I see a problem only with hi-cal 122 mm rounds, and more often HE than AP.

Make upper and lower side armored really much and make sides different (not so much) so only directhits can take out the gun.

Good point. Instead of fully armored gun we can increase only thickness of lower part. I don't know if it'll work, but I'll check it out.

Lockie pointed out that there is a short barrel inside the outer barrerl so I am going to heavily armor that area.

No, he just made a suggestion to make actual barrel short and inside "dummy visual" barrel. I've tried it and it doesn't work.

[frinik]

And where are they?


Quote

Hold your horses! I am going to email them to Kyth  for uploading on his webpage.I will let you know.And I can attest that her armour maps are doing the job.The German heavy tanks can now take punishment, almost no gun damage and they do get destroyed; they're not super,Frankenstanks.I am very , very happy with them. ;)Let's face it she is the only one who has had the initiative and willingness to tackle this problem .I like them and they will be part of the compilation I will make in early Fall.As far as i am concerned they make the game better .

[natalia99a]

Ok at the risk of being crucified yet again, here are some pic of king tiger map.

First 3 are straight from SPM 1.5 last 3 are the ones I totally ruined?

pic1 this one is obvious that some saboteur was at work in the factory, looks like the kill zones I seen complained about in some wot forums (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/b3287034.jpg)

pic2 just a view showing the lack of thickness to tops of side plates, and one of the non existent gaps (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/1.jpg)

pic3 again showing no thickness to front plate or glacis and some more gaps (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/2.jpg)

4 through 6 are the final product, probably more could be done.
pic4 (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/3.jpg)
pic5 (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/4.jpg)
pic6 (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/5.jpg)

I realize that adding depth to some areas of the plates is unnecessary in the opinion of some but as I said I am doing this for fun and a few people that want them, I will also note that the welds on the skin and some pics of the tank were use as guides for this so I'm not just randomly "fixing" things. I was going through some models last night and noticed some tank models the IS2 in particular (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/IS2.jpg) to be filled with armor gaps. these will be "fixed" as time allows

[Mistwalker]

pic1 this one is obvious that some saboteur was at work in the factory, looks like the kill zones I seen complained about in some wot forums

That is made with purpose. Can you guess why? 

pic2 just a view showing the lack of thickness to tops of side plates, and one of the non existent gaps

Ok, no objections here. This is the consequences of compression of armor map to lower resolution. However I don't think those "gaps" need that much attention - the probability for tank to be hit exactly there is very low, appr. less than 1 to 300 chance.  Well, you can correct those if you want.

I realize that adding depth to some areas of the plates is unnecessary in the opinion of some but as I said I am doing this for fun and a few people that want them

Hmm. So you're making some arcade-style mod?

The German heavy tanks can now take punishment

Why don't you just increase overall armor thickness for German heavy tanks in configuration file then? Instead of armor_thick = 100; set it to 120 or 150 for example.

[Kyth]

I realize that adding depth to some areas of the plates is unnecessary in the opinion of some but as I said I am doing this for fun and a few people that want them

Hmm. So you're making some arcade-style mod?

Now, that is just uncalled for.    I am quite sure that everyone is doing and discussing this for the sake of enhanced realism. That's how we all enjoy the game,


A timely reminder for everyone to be nice to each other here. Feel free to discuss and to disagree, of course, but keep things friendly and smiley now,

Keep in mind I have a large pair of scissors which I will not hesitate to use if things get out of hand.

[Mistwalker]

Now, that is just uncalled for.    I am quite sure that everyone is doing and discussing this for the sake of enhanced realism. That's how we all enjoy the game

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but so far as I understand the quote I answered was about the matter of increasing thickness in some unspecified areas except those discussed above (like in driver's plate of tiger's armor before). Or was it just overall summary? In this case I won't argue with it.

[natalia99a]

I had reduced the tigers driver plate back to 100, I didn't understand how the game engine dealt with damage until you told me. I only thickened the edges from side and tops of armor to realistically (at least I thought i was) represent the plates having for ex 80mm thickness of a tiger side plate when looking at it from overhead and the front plate from the side, so a hit at that edge (especially from top) wouldn't just fly through when it shouldn't. I know that this and the gaps I was fixing save tanks in remote percentages, but I am never happy with just good enough, it has to be the best I can possibly do or I won't even attempt it.

[natalia99a]

It does however seem that the Drivers Front plate and mantlet are under rated (http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/sabina63/Screens/PenetrationValuesvsMantlet.jpg) at least according to jentz.

[frinik]

 Just to add my grain of salt I foudn the Tiger tank to be increadibly weak at mid to longe range in that game even being taken out by a 76 mm shells from kv1s on the mantlet at 13oo metres and above.Now thanks to Natalia's new amrour maps this ain't the case a KV will kill a Tiger with a shot on the side turret at 700 to 800 metres or a T34/76 at 900 metres but not more being killed at 1200 metres or up by 76 mm shells.Likewise a Tiger II would be killed with a front shot at 800 metres and above.That  was a sign that either the shells were too powerful9which they were not ) or the armour was sub par or the amrour maps were not correct. I installed her new amrour maps , never looking back and they are just right in my experience even allowing for kills by 85 mm shells at ranges from 1100 to 1300 metres on a Tiger I but only under the right conditions( side shots, engine, lower frontal armour etc).Once I have them all compiled in one folder I am goign to email them to Kyth for those willing to give them a try and if corrections are really required I am sure Natalia will be glad to do them but I frankly doubt it.Arcade-type play is not what is aimed here on the contrary she is really keen like most of us on having the most realistic game play conditions.

[Mistwalker]

I had reduced the tigers driver plate back to 100, I didn't understand how the game engine dealt with damage until you told me. I only thickened the edges from side and tops of armor to realistically (at least I thought i was) represent the plates having for ex 80mm thickness of a tiger side plate when looking at it from overhead and the front plate from the side

Ok. So do you know, why there are weaker areas at the edges of  Tiger II front?

Just to add my grain of salt I foudn the Tiger tank to be increadibly weak at mid to longe range in that game even being taken out by a 76 mm shells from kv1s on the mantlet at 13oo metres and above.

That is impossible under normal conditions.

Now thanks to Natalia's new amrour maps this ain't the case a KV will kill a Tiger with a shot on the side turret at 700 to 800 metres or a T34/76 at 900 metres but not more being killed at 1200 metres or up by 76 mm shells.

Side armor wasn't changed. So kill distance is the same as before - you're just imagining things.

Likewise a Tiger II would be killed with a front shot at 800 metres and above.That  was a sign that either the shells were too powerful9which they were not ) or the armour was sub par or the amrour maps were not correct.

Armor maps were correct. Shells were more or less configured. If you're killed at 800 m, than it could be 3 things:
1) You're killed in turret front by 122 mm AP shell or 85 mm APSC shell.
3) You're hit by 122 mm AP or 85 mm APCS or 57 mm APCS in weld seam area of the front plate.
2) It's a bug.

I installed her new amrour maps , never looking back and they are just right in my experience even allowing for kills by 85 mm shells at ranges from 1100 to 1300 metres on a Tiger I but only under the right conditions

Ahem. Except the barrel the only change in armor map, that touched a wide area was a little thicker gunmask.

[natalia99a]

I never made the tiger2's front armor thinner, I was referring to the tiger1. and I am not concerned with any details (unfounded) saying the tigfer2 has weak armor on the front? since it was NEVER reported to have been pierced in combat. also according to jentz the mantlet increase I gave the tiger 1 is probably not as high as it should be. So you are saying the very thin gunners occula on original map is good? that was reinforced and not a hollow casting  you will never be happy with any settings unless they are the way you want them, so I suggest this mod will not be for you,

It's funny how many games claim to be realistic (ex. Olog and his super planes) when they fall very short of representing actual historical facts and documentaries by soldiers that actually faced these weapons (or commanded them), the tiger1 for instance inspired fear and (I read that in more than one source) I have seen actual tankers from ww2 on vid (brittish) that told how at 100m they could not hurt tiger1 (shells bounced off) with a 76mm, yet were in turn as in one case were literally blown out of his tank after 1 shot from an 88, yet in this game as it is set my the designers I am left scratching my head and wondering Why all the fuss? it isn't that the armor maps are totally incorrect in so much that some details were omitted and convenient kill zones were added and not to just the german tanks either. also shells I have discovered are not correct, I have a shooting range (compliment of frinik) and have found that they are way overpowered at long range and have made a few adjustments of my own, now max penetration is very close to 100m and min is on at 2000m as per the charts I have. (these will only be available if frinik uses them in his mod, they were made for personal use)

And while I am at it small arms fire is not correct in some weapons, Mosin and Mauser98 cannot fire 30rpm. I have very personal experience with Mosin rifle and it is not possible unless you are just wasting the bullets to make a point and then you risk second bullet jumping retaining spring and jamming rifle. and no my rifle is not some junk refurb, it is totally original.

I do have better things to to than fight over this, it is so ridiculous since all you have to is make your own mod if you want something different or if not just don't download it. I have nothing to gain or lose either way and am not after personal glory or credit. These are presented by frinik because he was nice enough to share them. I will not respond to anymore criticisms or attacks, I sure don't need the added stress and I don't have time to to waste coming here feeling I have to defend every thing I do when so many original errors aren't even addressed.

[frinik]

All right Mist I'll keep going imagining things and you'll keep imagining that I am imagining so everybody's happpy in their own imagination

BTW I can report an 80 %( totally imaginary I am sure decrease in gun damage since playing with her new armour maps for almost a month now!Ah imagination what a lovely quality!

I read a post yesterday on the HQsim about a guy reporting excessive gun damage in the game and asking if there are any fixes.I'll tell him not to allow his imagination to run wild and gun damage wil disappear