Tweaks to The Smoke; Flames and Explosion effects in SF

[frinik]

OH!!!! OK thanks because I was getting it wrong!I thought it was in the config folder.It's means we have to do it individually for very single tank!

[lockie]

It's means we have to do it individually for very single tank!

Yep, but only in case if u want to see a deformation head for assigned tank. In my opinion, it's interesting and funny, but looks a bit unrealistic.

[frinik]

  Ok Implemented it and does it ever work!I had my Panther D´s turret sheared off by a JS-2 at 1285 metres!Mind you I set the JS-2 penetration value for AP shells to 1.15 in the common res file.The result is pretty much in line with the results of the firing tests at Kubinka when they tested the 122mm on captured Panthers!

Likewise I had a Tiger I and II decapitated!!!!

I winder what happens if you enter the deformation into a Stug or SU tec_cfg folder?They don´t have turrets ... I´ll try and see what happens

Cheers!

[frinik]

Yep, but only in case if u want to see a deformation head for assigned tank. In my opinion, it's interesting and funny, but looks a bit unrealistic.

I have to disagree with you on this Lockie! If you watch those WWII documentaries from any side you´ll see shots of decapitated tanks with their turret blown off either by a direct shot or through the result of the ammo or fuel supply exploding inside the tank and the pressure would just rip the tank apart.It did not happen every time  but it did happen.In addition if you read battle accounts from WWII veterans more than one witnessed tank turrets being blown up by direct hits or after catching fire.

Anyway thanks very much for the info!

[lockie]

OK
I'd like to see more pictures vs decapitated tanks, coz I think this feature needs a cockpits and that's why it looks unrealistic, imho.

[frinik]

I 'll try to post pics of the decapitated tanks.But to tell you the truth when I saw my Panther decapitated it reminded me of a photograph that I saw on some WWII website of a Panther G with it's turret bent out of the hull after having been surprised by an American artillery barrage in Normandy.What SF needs is a more realistic damage model.Even after multiple hits the destroyed tanks show absolutely no bent or twisted metal nor missing parts except for the tracks.A couple of weeks ago, I watched a documentary about the TigerI. In one scene a Tiger I shoots a KV-1 from 700 metres.When the shell strikes it the KVjust disappears in a huge explosion , engulfed by an enormous cloud of smoke and you clearly see parts of the tank flying up everywhere landing metres from the hull.Compared to the damage model that we have in SF this is night and day!

[lockie]

Well, SF engine itself provides ability to put out fragments the whole unit from. Let's pick up a soldier. U may see that his rifle flies away from his body, but how to apply that effect to the techniqs - I don't 've any ideas.

[frinik]

I tried an experiment.I just added underneath:

deform        =     true;
deform2      =     true;

Then I played a test mission What happened is that when I machined gun any tank it would burst in flames!!!

Of course I erased the entry.Still for those who like setting trucks on fire easily it's something to consider.Just add the entry into the trucks tech_cfg file and burn baby burn!   

[lockie]

What happened is that when I machined gun any tank it would burst in flames!!!

That's too much
Did u try any self-propelled guns?

[Mistwalker]

Believe me with the tweaks I am proposing at least half or more of tanks/APcs on the battlefield will catch fire!

According to the statistics number of knocked out WW2 tanks that catch fire is between 15-25 %.

I have to disagree with you on this Lockie! If you watch those WWII documentaries from any side you´ll see shots of decapitated tanks with their turret blown off either by a direct shot or through the result of the ammo or fuel supply exploding inside the tank and the pressure would just rip the tank apart.

That happened, but rarely. Here's what a real tanker says on Sukhoi forum:

Turret blown off because ammo explosion. Powder in metal shells detonates rarely when catches fire. More likely that round will fly forward and shell - backwards (like a usual shot). In this case powder in the next shell wont detonate and round won't explode too because distance is short and safeguard will prevent the round from explosion.

Round can detonate only when another round near it explodes or from enemy AP round explosion directly near it. When AP round hits shell with powder, explosion won't happen. Also explosion happens when tank is burning for some time, because temperature's rising and chance of detonation increases.

So he says:
"If explosion happened after tank was burning for a long time and with hatches closed - that I believe. Because although I didn't experience it personally, I know it from my comrades. If explosion happened shortly after the hit - that I believe with some reservations. If explosion happened right after the hit - that I believe only because possibility theory allows that." 

Link:http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=51437&p=1104148&viewfull=1#post1104148

[lockie]

That's why it doesn't look realistic



But, of course, from the distance(~>50-100m) it looks quite exiting! So, it does that effects should be picked it up only personally by, imho.

[frinik]

Yes Lockie I tried the deformation effect on  the SUs and Stugs but nothing happened.Because they have no turrets.Likewise I tried it on the trucks and guns and no go.It only wiht the turrets and unfortunately I haven´t found a way to make them flip over and off the hull to the ground.

I am aware that the proportion of tanks catching fire is too high compared to reality but as people say it´s only a game! Still, I will produce a revised table with only the smoke and explosion effect accentuated while leaving the fire ones at the level they are defaulted in the game.However I have anarticle that seems to differ with what Mistwalker quoted:

Research conducted by the British No. 2 Operational Research Section, after the Normandy campaign, concluded that a Sherman would be set alight 82% of the time following an average of 1.89 penetrations of the tank’s armor; in comparison they also concluded that the Panzer IV would catch fire 80% of the time following an average of 1.5 penetrations, the Panther would light 63% of the time following 3.24 penetrations, and the Tiger would catch fire 80% of the time following 3.25 penetrations. John Buckley, using a case study of the 8th and 29th Armoured Brigades found that of the 166 Shermans knocked out in combat during the Normandy campaign, only 94 were burnt out; 56.6%. Buckley also notes that an American survey carried out concluded that 65% of tanks burnt out after being penetratedhttp://www.ww2f.com/armor-armored-fighting-vehicles/50775-myths-wwii-armor-3.html
 ...
 A U.S. Army study in 1945 concluded that only 10–15 percent of wet-stowage Shermans burned when penetrated, compared to 60–80 percent of the older dry-stowage Shermans..



Re the turrets it all depends what hits ther tank, I saw pics taken by the Soviets after Unternehmen FrÜhlingerwachen and you see columns of charred German tank wrecks with their turrets blown off some tanks totally taken apart probably by artillery fire.

[whukid]

So he says:
"If explosion happened after tank was burning for a long time and with hatches closed - that I believe. Because although I didn't experience it personally, I know it from my comrades. If explosion happened shortly after the hit - that I believe with some reservations. If explosion happened right after the hit - that I believe only because possibility theory allows that." 

Link:http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=51437&p=1104148&viewfull=1#post1104148

I don't think he's ever heard of a JDAM hahaha But what about the external gas tanks on, say, a T 34-85. I've heard a few stories about the fuel tanks being penetrated by Tracers and set alight, though the engine never caught on fire because there was no oxygen within the confines of the engine and therefore allowed the crew to keep fighting, just at a severe disadvantage.

[frinik]

 Joke aside Whukid MIstwalker´s got a point I don´t think tanks would catch fire that easily or in such large proportion.Of courese it also depends where the tank would be hit from what distance and what calibre or type of shell was used.For example the Panther had a well known weakness with it´s thinly armoured side vulnerable to any type of 75 or 76 mm shells used by Western Allies or Soviets and it´s sponsoons located on the side contained gasoline which resulted invariably in Panthers catching fire whenever hit on the side.The Shermans also had a propensity for catching fire after being hit although probably exaggerated. Soviet tanks ran on diesel which doesn´t catch fire as easily as gasoline so may be they were less prone to burning up after being hit or at least they would start smoking first and leave sufficient time for their crews to bail out.Still, the average life expectancy of a Soviet tank crew in 1943-1944 was about 3 weeks...Probably what it was for a Panzerwaffe crew in the last 5 months of the war...

For those concerned about tanks burning up too easily but still want to retain the thicker and higher column of smoke all they have to do is simply return the amneded values for the fire_sphere line to its original and the incidence of tank fire will return to the game default while retained the tweaked the smoke and HE explosions.


For those who want to have the decapìtated turret effect just enter SHYN´s 2 lines
 //deformation
deform         =     true;

just above the armour thickness entry in each of the tech_cfg file for each of the tank you want it applied to.

[Donken]

That's why it doesn't look realistic



But, of course, from the distance(~>50-100m) it looks quite exiting! So, it does that effects should be picked it up only personally by, imho.

This could probably be easy fixed on all new tanks or if someone have all old tank models and re-export it, its just to make two extra hole elements. One for hull turretring and one on turrets turretring. If no interior is made instead!

[norm]

There is a version of the T-34/76 mod 1941 that doesn't have an interior, could it have the interior from the other mod 1941 carried over to it?

[Mistwalker]

Research conducted by the British No. 2 Operational Research Section, after the Normandy campaign, concluded that a Sherman would be set alight 82% of the time following an average of 1.89 penetrations of the tank’s armor; in comparison they also concluded that the Panzer IV would catch fire 80% of the time following an average of 1.5 penetrations, the Panther would light 63% of the time following 3.24 penetrations, and the Tiger would catch fire 80% of the time following 3.25 penetrations. John Buckley, using a case study of the 8th and 29th Armoured Brigades found that of the 166 Shermans knocked out in combat during the Normandy campaign, only 94 were burnt out; 56.6%. Buckley also notes that an American survey carried out concluded that 65% of tanks burnt out after being penetratedhttp://www.ww2f.com/armor-armored-fighting-vehicles/50775-myths-wwii-armor-3.html

Good info, frinik. I'll look into it and compare with my data. 
Here's for example a table of how many of the lost T-34, were burned compared to total losses (by military operations).

It's in russian but you should see the numbers - the percent of burned T-34 is in the last column.



As you can see the lowest value is 1% (13 from 1235 vehicles), but it's probably understated.
The highest value is 35,8 % (43 from 120 vehicles). Average is prolly about 10-15 %.

Still, I will produce a revised table with only the smoke and explosion effect accentuated while leaving the fire ones at the level they are defaulted in the game.

Yeah, I think the %  of the vehicles that can catch fire is fine the way it is now. Sometimes there could be a large number of burning vehicles even with default settings:

[frinik]

Thanks for the table Mistwalker! I guess it also depends what set the tank on fire.I canimagine that a T34/43 being killed by a Tiger or Panther shell at short distance would be more likely to brew.Other weaponslike panzerfausts and panzerschreck fired from short distances and ususally aiming for the sides of tanks also accounted for a large proportion of burning tanks.

[Daskal351]

These tweaks are great, thanks for sharing them frinik!

Btw. Quick question. Is there a possibility to increase amount of exhaust smoke?

[frinik]

HI Daskal! Thanks! Yes I believe there is that's what I am working on right now I want to tweak the tank exhaust fumes and the smoke resulting from a gun firing.My problem is that I am working blind sicne I have to guess what very line refers to for example the one about sm_white you really have to test and figure out whta the white smoke is about( I suspect it's the white smoke that come off a tank when it's hit by a shell).

I saw a real T34 in working condition on youtube driving about and the amount of exhaust pouring out of the exhaust pipes was unbelievable.However multiplying the smoke effect to much in the effect could have a detrimental effect on the fps.