Graviteam

Guys, I decided to do a small mod for the game, but have a little problem with English. What is in English a squad which guards a divisional/regimental HQ? In Russian it is called comandant's squad but google translate suggests me either firing or curfew squad which I am skeptical about. Could you help me?

A particular term does not spring to mind immediately but I can say that a firing squad or a curfew squad are definitely not the correct terms. ;D

Someone will no doubt come up with something better but I suggest using something descriptive like "HQ security squad".

I think escort or security squad will be OK.

Thanks a lot! Will use security.

Another issue, I am going to mention in squad's name which of them have radio communication. The current variant is like "Company commander (radio)", is it ok?

Sounds good to me.

Yes.  It is easy to understand and it is descriptive.

Thanks for your answers !

I have another issue  ;D  If I talk about a mixed company, formed of different platoons, if a "composite company" a proper name or use mixed? May be, there are other better options...

I think you are referring to an ad hoc group, outside of normal military organization.  You might consider using the term Task Force.  Originally the term applied to naval forces assigned to a specific task but it has come to be used in reference to ground forces too.  I know that the German army used the term kampfgruppe during WW2 to designate a group put together from various organizations to do a specific job.

Thanks, Tanker,  I thought about a task force but does this term fit a troop of a platoon or company size?

Mmm, probably not.  It's probably for something larger.  Perhaps mixed is a better choice.  Can you give an example of what you have in mind?  How would this "mixed" unit differ from a regular company or platoon?

There are couple of examples:

1) A tank brigade. It has suffered a heavy casualties and tanks from all its battalions were put into a single company. The way it is called in Russian the closest meaning is combined or composit company.

2) A groupe of a company size is formed and is used to defend a bridge. Composition of the group is: 1 rifle company (in fact 1.5 platoons) and 1 mortar platoon from battalion X, 1.5 tank platoon from brigade Y, 1 AT gun battery from regiment Z. In WW2 Soviet docs it is usually like a combat group (German equivalent of Kampfgruppe). In modern Russian it is a company tactical group.

3) Destruction brigade (well, here is one more language issue  ;D , by the sense it is an Anti-tank brigade made of AT guns, combat engineers with AT mines and anti-tank rifles, but in Russian it is called in the way that destruction is seemed to be the only option in English  ;D  In German, perhaps, it can be called as zerstören).

Back to a destruction brigade. 2 groups - the first: 1/2 of artillery, 2 combat engineers coys, 1.5 AT Rifle Battlion. The second: 1/2 of Bde artillery, 1 SMG platoon, 0.5 AT Rifle Battalion.

 ;D Thanks in advance

Composite may be the best choice.  There may be a better term used by modern armies in English speaking countries but I'm not aware of it.  In WW2 the term was used for at least one US Army unit.  I think the meaning would be clear in English.

Google suggests "mixed" is most probable. :D

Regarding destruction brigade, it's probably a destroyer brigade. At least nobody complained about them in Shilovo.

I am not sure that google is a good source in this case  ;) It provides with casual options, but not specific, like military  ;)

To be honest, I've forgotten that there is already an "Istribitelnaya" brigade; nevertheless, both destroyer and destruction sound weird  :-\

I find various specific results look military enough: "58th Independent Mixed Brigade" (http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Return/USA-P-Return-19.html) and "1st Mixed Brigade" (https://books.google.ru/books?id=y56Dut69s5UC&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=mixed+battalion+ww2&source=bl&ots=uEEaNS96o1&sig=Uq57DYgQIRnSkd4DtkWJXxM3to8&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=XTGMVfj6BYurswHJ_oCwAQ&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCTgK#v=snippet&q=mixed%20brigade&f=false) for example.

"Destroyer Brigades" (https://books.google.ru/books?id=Vr4Xr1EeezQC&pg=PA885&lpg=PA885&dq=destroyer+brigade&source=bl&ots=HTO-GFslGM&sig=g7im93K_QQGzpjcQIhntQOk000c&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=wDKMVdStOujnygO2rqxA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=destroyer%20brigade&f=false) are even more recognizable.

Ok, Krabb, you've persuaded me with destroyer brigades  ;D

But, I still ponder between mix and composite or something else.

That's because people are used to GT's quirky terminology and don't bother to say anything. :D

Destroyer brigade may make sense to Russian speakers but it would probably leave English speakers scratching their heads.

Well, I am a native Russian speaker, but I am not sure that Destroyer brigade tells me anything :) However, I've checked a book of Steven J. Zaloga & Leland S. Ness about the Red Army and find their solution. They use term "(Infantry) Tank Destroyer Brigade".  ;D

But nothing about combat groups.

Composite make the most sense in English.  destroyer brigade make no sense and I have never ever heard that used for anything.  At best, an English speaker would think tank destroyers aka...marders or maybe some kind of assault gun.  

Ad Hoc even is an good way to describe a thrown together unit.  Task Force is more modern and more or less equal to something like a German panzer group of ww2.  

So I vote...

simply ad hoc

or

composite



LOL......... firing squad.  YA... NO hell NO.  Thats for shooting people.  Like for crimes and such. 

Ok, for platoon / company size troop it will be composite.

For "destroyer brigade" will be "(Infantry) Tank Destroyer Brigade" as this term is used by Steven Zaloga who is a very reputable American WW2 historian.


Now, about the germans: what should it be in this case instead of Kampfgruppe?
(http://s01.geekpic.net/dt-YXMRZI.jpeg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-YXMRZI.html)



That is why I try to stay away from google translate  ;D

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/units/brigades/318-1st-tank-destroyer-brigade
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=Z6jGY-sbgiUC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Destroyer+Brigade&source=bl&ots=EGCx2_Q6Nj&sig=YUC9KQwXcxBia7g1jAyp4_7_55Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xnSOVdmJGeP-ywOH06KoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Destroyer%20Brigade&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/614th_Tank_Destroyer_Battalion

Do you think it's all Russian speakers?  :o

But Marders its a towed gun+self-propelled cart

It is not clear why if we remove "self-propelled cart", suddenly disappears and Destroyer too?
This sounds very illogical.

It's all temporary tactical/operational units thats organized to do some tasks, in Russian have their analogue battle (combat) group. A ... Destroyer Brigade (like any other brigade) - a full-time organizational structure not temporary.

I don't speak about ИПТАБр I speak about Истребительная brigade. They are complitely different. The second has not only AT guns but also minelayers, ATRifles, SMG troops, mortar troops, AA guns, tanks. There is no english equivalent for Истребительная something.


Furthermore "истребительная" brigade / division was in Infantry section but not in Artillery section of an army strenght report. It is a very mixed organisation.

И in ИПТАБР the same as И in ИБ

If IPTABR = Tank Destroyer Brigade
IBR = Destroyer Brigade

I think no sense to produce other essence in this case.



And this is something essentially changes? It can not destroy tanks?

The point is in terminology. Every science has its well-established terminology and it is incorrect to introduce new (in our case). Here we have english version of the name, which was used in a reputable work, so we should follow it.

Moreover, as you can see native english speakers don't find just "Destroyer Brigade" as a correct option. Should we teach them english ?  ;D ;D

I think better orientation in issues of terminology for professional historians, not visitors of the forums.
I bet that if an arbitrary Russian-speaking forum to ask what IPTABR / "Istrebitelnaya brigada", that 99% say they never heard such a thing. In the best case "Istrebitelnaya brigada" = something linked with the aircrafts.

"Destroyer brigade" in Russian ("истребительная" that is) sounds strange, too. :D

Too bad, with such attitude it will not improve. And I was wondering why nobody noticed the updated translation.

Objective statistic:

(http://imgur.com/hdK2jfr.jpg)

(http://imgur.com/IHmOHtn.jpg)

May be you English speaking guys know English worse than Google ;D

Umm, nope.

Maybe you are marketing to Google more than to English speaking guys.

Those graphs are probably misleading.  You'd have to examine each and every instance in each and every book to see what the context was.  90% of those "hits" may not have referred to an army unit in the 1940s.  A more useful statistic would be to sample your target audience.  Statistics can be helpful but also terribly misleading.

I think FB_Aga is on the right track relying on Zaloga's terminology.

Krabb: Overquote removed.

Tank destroyer in English  sounds wrong, unless you are using it to describe units made up of self propelled anti tank guns like the Hellcat or the Jackson, whose sole purpose was to destroy tanks.
When I hear destroyer I think of a class of naval ships DD.

Anti Tank or AT I think will work much better with English audiences when describing units with a tank killing capability.

I agree with you Dane.  If we are just talking about units to combat tanks.

However, FB_AGA's original question was about what English term to use for an ad hoc unit, made up from other formal organizations, if I understood him correctly.  The best terms I've heard for that so far are "mixed" or "composite".

Mixed, composite or ad hoc I think would work for the English audience.

Consolidated may work also, but the US army generally didn't disband units for being destroyed. Most units would be pulled off the line for a brief period and reconstituted with replacements after suffering excessive casualties. If that wasn't immediately possible they would put all the remnants in one organisation whose leadership was still intact and refer to them as that unit. This only happended mainly during the battles in the Hurtgen forest during WW2.

During the American civil war Northern regiments were never expected to be reconstituted with replacements but would be disbanded after heavy casualties and whoever remained would be attached to new units that were formed by anyone with future politcal aspirations.
That changed somewhat in 1864, but not much.

1) David M. Glantz, ‎Harold Steven Orenstein, ‎Soviet Union.

The 2d Destroyer [Antitank] Division's 4th Brigade was concentrated in the Kursk region, and the 1st Destroyer Brigade was in Vereitinovo.
The headquarters of the Central Front were located in the Svoboda Station region. As is evident from ...

2) Anders Frankson, ‎Niklas Zetterling - 2013
TABLE 3.9: CENTRAL FRONT ANTI-TANK RESERVE
 76mm 45mm
lst Anti-Tank Brigade 40 20
13th Anti—Tank Brigade 40 20
130th Anti—Tank Regiment 24 —
563rd Anti-Tank Regiment — 20
4th Destroyer Brigade 16 12
Total 120 72 ...

3) David M. Glantz - 2005
... 4 82mm mortars each and one battery with four 120mm mortars.
So configured, the strength of the destroyer brigade was 1,791 men, and it fielded sixteen 76mm guns, twelve 45mm guns, four 37mm guns, four 120mm mortars, eight 82mm ...

Oh well, I start write letter to this historians, about what they do not know English  :D

P.S. "These are the assault brigade, combat brigade, sabotage brigade, commando brigade, and destroyer brigade."
Try to guess a country, army and time  ;D

 ;D Ok, then. Seems these authors used the same logics: if "I AT Brigade" = "AT Destroyer Brigade" then "I Brigade" = "Destroyer Brigade"  :D

Well, at least we've found out that this point is correct in the game  ;D
 

I'd simply call it Anti tank brigade.


Just curious, what exactly does Истребительная mean? There's a very similar word in my language, and it means exterminator.  ;D

There were AT brigades in the Red Army, they had only 45 - 85mm guns. But a "destroyer brigade" had almost all types of ground troops.


Yes, it is something like exterminator. But, I find this word strange in the sense of ground troops too. An ordinary russian person associate this word only with a fighter plane.

In fact it not really anti-tank. It have howitizers, mortars, infantry, sapers, some tanks and arty, etc.

Istrebitelno-protivotankovaya brigada- this is anti tank
Istrebitelnaya brigada - is not anti tank

That is the essence!

Didn't Russia ban him from reviewing anymore Russian military archives because they didn't like the conclusions He came up with for the Russian army failures during operation Mars?
"Zhukovs Greatest Defeat, Operation Mars"- David M Glantz.

Hmm...Russian digital archives are free to anyone. But, they are in russian...and currently in progress of uploading.

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/
http://www.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/1-russisch-deutsches-projekt-zur-digitalisierung-deutscher-dokumente-in-den-archiven-der-russischen-foderation
http://sovdoc.rusarchives.ru/#main

Ministry of Defence archive itself is a military unit and non-russia citizens are not allowed on its territory, but citizens from the former Soviet Union states could be let in.

Furtermore, Glanz books are actively published in Russia.