What about updating the "Manual"?

[GBS]

Andrey, there are so many new features in the latest alpha patch there needs to be some documentation explaining what things are. If anyone bought the game today and put in the latest alpha patch, there is no way they could decipher the various new icons that are showing up in the Tactical Phase of the game. I've been playing this game for years and I still don't fully understand some of the thing I'm seeing. I still don't know what the following represent:

The "eye" that appears above squad icons....
The "Y" that appears above vehicles...
The yellow and blue "sound " things that appear around the squad icons....
The tiny white dots that appear above the squad icons(only when there is action going on)....
The single tiny white dots that are above the individual soldier icon (red dot) when not using the squad icon...
The blue line and the small red mark that are above the Cap in the command value box at the bottom when a squad or vehicle is 
    highlighted....
The new "'AI" control button in the orders panel. I can't tell what it does....

Lots of other stuff as well. Perhaps you could put a readme file in the final of this patch to act as an addendum to your manual that would explain some of these things.

[Flanker15]

That'd be useful yeah, full english documentation is always in short supply from graviteam for obvious reasons.

[wodin]

If I had the time I'd do one myself..could be a project for someone good at writing that sort of thing?

[Lemonade]

I thought Graviteam were going to drop the manual?

[Tac Error]

IIRC the tooltip system was going to replace the PDF manual as the primary reference source.

[GBS]

A tool tip won't explain the questions I mentioned above.

[Tanker]

I thought Graviteam were going to drop the manual?

That would be a great mistake I think.  They really need to update it with a decent English translation.

[andrey12345]

A tool tip won't explain the questions I mentioned above.

At the time of alpha-testing and feature refinement of course no one will add descriptions, otherwise defeats the main purpose of the open testing.

Further, it is assumed that these icons are informative and the player can not influence them. If something is not clear what is happening globally, we need to change the icons but not write tons of text that it is  .

[andrey12345]

I thought Graviteam were going to drop the manual?

That would be a great mistake I think.  They really need to update it with a decent English translation.

To see exactly what it was a mistake, you need to clarify one small question, who will deal with?

While there is no clear answer to this question, we completly discard a manual. It is not needed, as those who read it - can use the built-in help system or understand what is happening, and those who do not read, so all the same,  even the best manual not helps.

[Tanker]

I guess I was thinking more of a manual for any new games you came up with Andrey.  I can understand why you wouldn't wish to spend time on updating the manual for an older, published game like APOS but that would obviously be your responsibilty, not anyone else's.  You sold the game to english speaking customers with a not very high quality translation and to avoid the problem of fixing that your solution is to discard the manual.  I find a manual, even a not very good one, to be a very useful thing in addition to an ingame help system.  The game is confusing enough pre Alpha to newcomers, even with a manual and in game help.  I can imagine how much more confusing it will be post Alpha, without a manual to refer to, perhaps to print out and take to that time honored study hall, the bathroom for perusing at leisure.

I get the impression that as the developer, you are so familiar with the game that you don't appreciate how opaque this game can appear to the first time user.  I played the demo when it first came out and put it aside as a game that was too clumsy to play and too hard to figure out comfortably.  I've since changed my mind because I kept at it.

I don't think an in game help system will be sufficient

[Flanker15]

Andrey's a pretty good manual though, most of the complex stuff he's explained on the forums somewhere.

[andrey12345]

I guess I was thinking more of a manual for any new games you came up with Andrey.  I can understand why you wouldn't wish to spend time on updating the manual for an older, published game like APOS but that would obviously be your responsibilty, not anyone else's.  You sold the game to english speaking customers with a not very high quality translation and to avoid the problem of fixing that your solution is to discard the manual.  I find a manual, even a not very good one, to be a very useful thing in addition to an ingame help system.  The game is confusing enough pre Alpha to newcomers, even with a manual and in game help.  I can imagine how much more confusing it will be post Alpha, without a manual to refer to, perhaps to print out and take to that time honored study hall, the bathroom for perusing at leisure.

There are several ways to solve the problem.
At now time we think that writing the manual is the worst option.
1) It's no one to do it, even in Russian.
2) The manual is a formality, most players it still does not read (judging on the forums).
3) It could not help for new "casual" players as well as seeing the manual for more than 10 pages, they will throw the game, and I must say rightly so  .

As we can see, on the one hand we do not have the technical capabilities, on the other it does not solve problems.
Ie is a waste of resources.

So we go the other way, the game should become more easier (automated) and there should be an in-game help for certain issues, which can be viewed directly in the game is flipping through some dumb manuals from many pages.

[Tanker]

I'll be interested to see if your method is an improvement.  Time will tell.

[ownederd]

maybe the community could take upon the task of improving the documentation?

[andrey12345]

I'll be interested to see if your method is an improvement.  Time will tell.

Yes, time has shown all, look at all the normal modern game, there is no manual as such, I'm not talking about more than 10 pages. All features are told in a training mode or even in the game during gameplay.

Well, who in their right mind would read the manual in 100 pages? Player not meet the library, it is in the game and the need for read somthing a very annoying even just his presence  .

P.S. I have some time to try to answer questions as a reference to the manual. But then I did logical conclusion that no one reads it. And if any part or feature of the game almost no one uses it, this is a game design mistake and should be removed, but not compounded again and again. Large manual is just a case of game design mistake - instead of working on game improving the resources spent on the description glyches and bugs in it, we can not afford that "luxury" 

[Lemonade]

Yes, time has shown all, look at all the normal modern game, there is no manual as such, I'm not talking about more than 10 pages. All features are told in a training mode or even in the game during gameplay.

Well, who in their right mind would read the manual in 100 pages? Player not meet the library, it is in the game and the need for read somthing a very annoying even just his presence  .

Yes, but normal modern games don't have manuals because they are so simple that they don't need them. Almost all mainstream productions are clones of games, that were clones of other games that have been designed sometime in the past, with only slight differences. APOS on the other hand is a unique and quite complex simulator (which is good!) and, especially with the recent alpha patches, it's hard to work some things out without a good reading (like, on wired comm or new unit status icons).

Still, lack of manual is not a problem if you will keep on replying to our questions asked here on the forum.
With a little bit of your help, we could create our own, community manual (wikia or PDF based) without Graviteam directing resources into that area.
This way, you could focus on making that short-barreled StuG, finally.

[andrey12345]

Yes, but normal modern games don't have manuals because they are so simple that they don't need them. Almost all mainstream productions are clones of games, that were clones of other games that have been designed sometime in the past, with only slight differences. APOS on the other hand is a unique and quite complex simulator (which is good!) and, especially with the recent alpha patches, it's hard to work some things out without a good reading (like, on wired comm or new unit status icons).

The game may have a complex game mechanics, but it does not mean that it must be difficult to understand.
Modern games are not all just clones, and the game mechanics may be a very complex, but they bypassed without a manuals for 100+ pages. And I think we in that direction to go. Happiness does not come at once, but still.

Still, lack of manual is not a problem if you will keep on replying to our questions asked here on the forum.
With a little bit of your help, we could create our own, community manual (wikia or PDF based) without Graviteam directing resources into that area.

I am all the time in touch 

This way, you could focus on making that short-barreled StuG, finally.

not soon

[Tanker]

I'll be interested to see if your method is an improvement.  Time will tell.

Yes, time has shown all, look at all the normal modern game, there is no manual as such, I'm not talking about more than 10 pages. All features are told in a training mode or even in the game during gameplay.

Well, who in their right mind would read the manual in 100 pages? Player not meet the library, it is in the game and the need for read somthing a very annoying even just his presence  .

P.S. I have some time to try to answer questions as a reference to the manual. But then I did logical conclusion that no one reads it. And if any part or feature of the game almost no one uses it, this is a game design mistake and should be removed, but not compounded again and again. Large manual is just a case of game design mistake - instead of working on game improving the resources spent on the description glyches and bugs in it, we can not afford that "luxury" 

So it seems that the decision not to include a manual is primarily an economic one.  Call me crazy, but I read any manual supplied with a game from cover to cover and use it as reference afterwards.  Combat Mission Barbarossa To Berlin, a game not that much different in complexity to APOS, offered a great printed manual.  That was a wonderful accompaniament to learning and playing the game.  That manual was complete, indexed and grammatically correct.  Later, game companies saved money by providing only pdf manuals, now it seems the trend is to eliminate any manual at all.

I think people ask so many questions about game play to you here because the manual provided is incomplete, outdated, and hard to understand, not because people don't read the manual.
It's not logical to conclude that people are not reading the manual in such circumstances. 

I guess hoping to have a cogent picture of how a game operates by having questions haphazardly answered on a forum is the price we have to pay for patronizing small, indie game companies?

[andrey12345]

So it seems that the decision not to include a manual is primarily an economic one.  Call me crazy, but I read any manual supplied with a game from cover to cover and use it as reference afterwards.  Combat Mission Barbarossa To Berlin, a game not that much different in complexity to APOS, offered a great printed manual.  That was a wonderful accompaniament to learning and playing the game.  That manual was complete, indexed and grammatically correct.  Later, game companies saved money by providing only pdf manuals, now it seems the trend is to eliminate any manual at all.

A long time ago games are released on 3.5-inch diskettes distributed in a beautiful packages. But things are changing, including the approach to game development. Some things are dropped some new added. This process can not be stopped.

I think people ask so many questions about game play to you here because the manual provided is incomplete, outdated, and hard to understand, not because people don't read the manual.

Suppose about English players agree. But what about Russian? They and the manual was more or less immediately, but questions still ask, why?

I think it's human nature to ask online is easier than to read, and read is easier than think. In this case, if feature is made clear, and there is no question that does not need manual and mayby questions too.

It's not logical to conclude that people are not reading the manual in such circumstances. 

If you look at my posts with this statement I began.
So now you understand why the manual is not necessary, it is good

I guess hoping to have a cogent picture of how a game operates by having questions haphazardly answered on a forum is the price we have to pay for patronizing small, indie game companies?

Of course not. Each developer have a resources that it can spend on making the game. Since resources are not infinite, and in the case of small teams are limited, so the developer must choose where to spend resources. The manual is the same feature like any other part of the game. So spending resources on manual and it support, we will not spend it on something else.
For example there will be no significant changes to the gameplay and interface, as it involves to rework and relocalization for manual.

We (and most developers) chose a different way. Maybe this is a mistake, and in the future will again all gamedevs will write manuals for many pages, but something I strongly doubt in it

But now a lot of different games, and everyone can choose what it is more appropriate (and actually either approve the developers feature choice or not). If the main criterion for the game sold is manual, then of course not need to buy our games.

[Beelzeboss]

Sorry but I think we are living in a different worlds Which developer don't make manuals? I'm not talking about FIFA or something like this. As I remember Combat Mission has manual(not only that from a begone age but also modern Combat Mission), Silent Hunter, War In the East, War in the Pacific,  Airborne Assault(now command ops) Hearts of Iron, Total War and many, many more. The only one game that didn't have manual was maybe Sturmovik, but I'm not sure. I think even there was some kind of documentation.  And I always read manual for more complicated and elaborated games. I don't like to not understand something