Graviteam

As to the new SPM update. I've planned to change bb_round parameter for armored vehicles from 5 to 10 as in "Kharkov 1943" - that  improves AI driving capabilities (tanks almost do not bump in each other and better drive around the obstacles). But there are some complaints that if there's deep and narrow water obstacle in the mission, vehicles sometimes get drown when driving near it.

So to the question: is there anyone who changed bb_round parameter and played with it? What's better - to change it to 10 or to leave it at 5?

As to the reloading speed (from archive documents):

In 1941-42 in Russia was created special course to check real combat rate of fire of some tanks. 5 targets were placed into the course (from "machinegun" to "tank" at 400-600 m distance. Tested tank had to locate and destroy all those targets.
Here's the results in 1943:
Pz III - 5-9 shots/min
Pz IV - 4-7 shots/min
T-34 - 3-6 shots/min
KV-1 - 6 shots/min

results in 1944:
Tiger II - 4-5 shots/min (mainly because slow turret traverse speed - depends on engine RPM)
T-34-85 - in place 7-8 shots/min, combat imitation - 4-6 shots/min

Another piece of info from armor book about IS-2 development:

Combat rate of fire for IS-2 - 1,5-2 shots/min - gun with piston breechblock, 2-3 shots/min - gun with wedge-type breechblock and unexperienced crew, 3-3,5 shots/min and experienced crew. 4-6 shots/min in place, and experienced crew.
Note: gun with wedge-type breechblock was developed in March 1943. There were only about 200 early IS-2 without it.

One more piece of info from armor book about Tiger I:
According to english tests reloading speed in place for Tiger I is 6.5 seconds.

So I decided to change in SPM update some reloading speeds according to the info above:

For all 76mm tank guns return reloading speed to old value 10.5 seconds.
For Tiger I change from 9 to 8 seconds.
For T-34-85 change from 8 to 9 seconds.
For IS-2 change from 25 to 21 seconds.

  Hi Mistwalker!I tinkered with the Bb round for all the tanks and after moving it to 10 following an exchange of posts on the subject I decided to go with Hemisent's suggestion to set it at 8 because setting it at 10 can increase the risks of the tanks driving into lakes and rivers( I think it's Kyth who mentioned that?).Does it make a big difference?Yes and no but it does improve a little the meandering of the tanks.

Re the reload rates I have come to the same conclusions you came to and changed my own reload rates about 9 months ago.Faster for the Tiger slower for the T34/76 (as the commander acted as the loader as well).The reload rate for the JS2 is too fast in the game but I understand why it is so; to make that tank playable.

My own values: 7 secs for the Panther,8 for the Tiger I and 9 for the Tiger II/Jagdpanther and Elefant.Alll other German tanks deserve 6 or 7 except for the Brummbaer.

For the Sov tanks I have left them as they are except for the T34/76.

I think bb_round should be change for the bigger value, but not to all to the value "10".
I've already changed reloading time for IS-2 to "20" sec :)

I've been playing with the bb_round values at 8 and it's much easier gameplay. tanks still come very close but don't really smash into each other anywhere near what they were before.

I've tried the bb_round setting at 10.0 without a problem. Map M09_Zavodi, testing the AI for my Mission 8 (Quietly Flows the Blub) which has several river crossings. There seems to be less bumping / pathfinding problems but I can't really tell for sure,

Which map has the deep / narrow water obstacles?

 The Petrovka w07 map has lots of rivers and creek.I tried bb rounds of 10 and 12 of my 36 tanks drowned despite the fact that I traced a path for them indicating where to ford the streams....!!!! With bb 9.0; only 4 did.Again it may be fluke as the AI does not always behave consistently.

For comparison, did you set the formation to nil?

My mission "Jagdpanther over the top" created on polygon w04_kr_dolina. Almost all my spgs drowns every time at bb_round=10.

What formation were they in?

SPG's don't have formation. There're 5(depends on balance) separate ones.
(http://xmages.net/storage/10/1/0/a/3/thumb/thumb_8a845941.jpg) (http://xmages.net/view.php/85285_dr-zone-jpg.html)

AS for me I have tried all combos; freely, line and column and it makes no great difference as some tanks bump into each other some go straight for right path then at the last minute turn around and go straight for the deep waters.....

bb_round - this value defines the size of technics in meters for check of crossing (tracing).
If you put value = 10, the tanks are thinking that they are much larger in size and can be drown. :)

 Iceman what can happen if we set the bb_round under 5????

The tanks are thinking that they are much larger in size.
For example, for tanks maximum passableness depth of water - 0,5-0,7 meters (depending on the size). If you tell the AI ​​that the tank is more than 2 times, then he will think that maximum passableness depth of water for him 1.0-1,4 meter. And the tank will go boldly into the depth of water which is fatal for him.

I hope this isn't too off topic, but I guess it's a type of reloading. What I'm referring to is the rate infantry can throw grenades, Is it possible to slow them down a bit?
I've only held a grenade but never tried throwing one, I assume the process would include detaching it from the belt, pulling pin, getting ready to throw while aiming and finally chucking it.
The guys that pepper me resemble a pitching machine and they never seem to miss.  :-\

And they're extremely effective too, like they're lobbing satchel charges  :)

Tell me about it!Yesterday as I was aiming at a JS-2 a single Sov infantryman managed to disable to gun of my Tiger II with a single grenade.Then the JS-2 made minced meat out of me.This is what I call perfect armour-infantry co-ordination.Textbook in fact :-[

hehe. Or just bad luck :p I prefer to sit back as more of a sniper with the Tiger 2. It doesn't seem to do so well against the enemy at close range

The rpg40 grenade needs to be turned way down have a look  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-40

  So do I whukid but this Sov infantryman came out of nowhere!!!He took me by surprise and before I had time to cut him down he threw his grenade and boom no gun!!! I was so focussed on burning JS-2s ( I destroyed 9 in 6 minutes) I didn't see him until it was too late....

I looked through various files to see whther the grenade throwing can be somewhat reduced but no luck  so far.I'll keep searching.May be in the common res file....

Play without infantry ;)
The main idea of SF is quite good: tanks without infantry supply could be destroyed by enemy infantry. It does that no need go to the trenches, if enemy still there.

  True enough but in SF the infantry is on steroids.... ;D

I now prefer to think they're bolstered by invisible attack dogs  ;D

...Far too much levity in here...

 :)

So, bb_round should be  8. Or not?

In fact I have another suggestion. It's to make separate bb_round mod. How about it?

By the way, Kyth, what tanks did you change mark positions for? Here i have edited models for t-34-42, t-34-85, is-2 and models with "invisible" changes for Tiger 2 and Panther. But they all have old mark placement.

In theory before war - yes, but in fact commander in t-34-76 acted as gunner. That's why periscope sight for t-34-72 with new turret is on gunner's side of the roof.
I think is't a little slow. :) 1 shot in 25 seconds - it's only 2.2 shots/min
Feridnand (Elefant is the name for modified Ferdinand with MG and commander's cupola) has 2 loaders and spacious cabin, so it's fire rate should be higher than for Tiger 2. I'd say 1 shot in 7-8 seconds.

I think:
"8"
For the T-35, T-28, IS-2, KV-1, KV-1e, TigerI/II, Panther, Jagdpanter.
"7"
For the spg stugIIG/F, PzIV, SU-85, SU-100

Why not? If some1 like it, he'll install.

Hi,

Here's the list of models where the marking positions were changed, (it's quite a long list :) )

German:
Panzer 38(t) - all variants
Panzer II
Panzer III
Panzer IV
Panther
Tiger (and TigerSS)
Tiger II
StuG III C/D
Marder II (Sk131)
Marder II (Sk132)
Marder III
Ferdinand
Jagdpanther
Brummbar
Sk250
Sk251
Sk232

Russian:
T38
T26
BT5
T60
T70
T28
T-34/76
T-34/76 (Model 1943)
T-34/85 (both variants)
KV-1
KV-2
IS-2
Mk2 Matilda
Mk3 Valentine
SU122
SU152
SU85

I haven't changed these models yet: StuG IIIF, StuG IIIG, Hetzer, SU100, T-35, BA10, BA64, Skfz7

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There's a simple way to copy over the updated marking positions;
Open model version 1 -> Select all the marking chunks -> 'Copy' -> Open model version 2 -> Select and Delete all the old marking chunks -> 'Insert' the new ones.

   think is't a little slow.  1 shot in 25 seconds - it's only 2.2 shots/min

Quote
Mistwalker the relaod rate for the JS-1(1943 model was according to Soviet source I read on Battlefield.ru was 1 to 1.5 shots a minute.This was too low so they improved it with the 1944 JS-2 model to 1.5 to 2 shots a minute .So it means an average reload rate of 30 seconds using the fastest rate....

I also think that it would be good to have a separate bb_round mod, with bb_round = 10.

It seems that having bb_round set to 10 is better for almost all the maps (except Petrovka w07 and w04_kr_dolina, as far as we know). Therefore it would be good to have this mod and to state that it should be disabled to play missions in those maps...

Just my opinion  :)


Txema

  Iceman, one of the developers of SF, seems to suggest avoiding setting the bb_round to 10 as the tanks become more prone to drownning.Most mapos have rivers and lakes.As well i ssupect it may increase their propensity to fall into holes, ravines and anti tank ditches even if there's no water.

Re: bb_round parameter and reloading speed discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 05:49:03 PM » Quote 

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bb_round - this value defines the size of technics in meters for check of crossing (tracing).
If you put value = 10, the tanks are thinking that they are much larger in size and can be drown.

you also have to realize; the JS-2 had to load the charge and shell separately. This took extra time and effort and resulted in less ammo space :P

Hey, guys, did you read the first post carefully? :)

And here's the document from the same Battlefield.ru, that confirms the last numbers (in russian of course). http://www.battlefield.ru/ru/documents/80-armor-and-equipment/287-100mm-gun-mount-js2-letter2.html (http://www.battlefield.ru/ru/documents/80-armor-and-equipment/287-100mm-gun-mount-js2-letter2.html)

By the way, IS-1 was armed with 85-mm gun, same as for T-34-85. So it couldn't have low fire rate. All tanks, armed with 122-mm gun were called IS-122 or even KV-122 in 1944 and their name changed to IS-2 only in 1945 or so.

  Yes the IS or JS122 1943 model was the one with the abysmally slow rate later improved a tad with the 1944 JS-2 model.The problem is the Germans, a little confused - as I am -by all the changes referred to the IS122 as the JS1 which I also used by mistake but you are right the KV85 and JS1 are one and the same. The KV85 had a similar rate of fire to the T34/85 but carried more shells( was it 76 or 83????).It seems to me that it was in the spring 1944 that the name JS/IS2 was adopted.  The article I read did not mention the latest , faster loading guns.Does it say what proportion of the roughly 3300 JS2 produced carried the faster loading versions????