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Author Topic: End of WWII  (Read 5756 times)
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frinik
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« on: April 16, 2011, 02:04:15 AM »

    Hi Guys!  I know it's a little unusual topic but Hey that's what fora are all about. In less than 3 weeks times it will be the 66th aniversary of the end of WWII 8 th of May in the West and 9th in the East. Since we are playinfg a WWII sim I think it might be an idea to mark the event. When I play the sim I often think about the men, from both sides, who fought this vicious and merciless war particulalrly those on the East front who were serving 2 cruel and unscrupulous tyrants( who are both, thank God, both long dead and buried) who used the lives of millions of young men to achieve or fail their ambitions.  I have a lot of respects and admiration for those Soviet and German tankers who served their respective countries and ideals( no matter how twisted they were)with incredible courage and selflessness and for most of them there was no glory but simply a gory death in their iron coffins. I remeber reading a report that in 1944 the average life expectancy of a Soviet tank crew was 3 weeks! And I am failry sure it wasn't much longer for the PanzerWaffe crews!

Irrespective of our personal leanings or opinions I think it would be good to mark the aniversary  in homage to all these young men who died by the hundred of thousand all over the battlefileds of the former Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe and Germany proper. It might be a good idea also to recall that no matter what a warped and absurd ideology tried to persuade or argue,  the people of the former Soviet Union( Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Baltic states, Jews,etc) and of Germany-Austria( the Austrians often forgotten were an integral part of the German Reich) are brothers and share a common history and civilisation. The idea that one nation or "race" is superior to the other in any way is a monstruous absurdity that has no place in our hearts and minds.
I am sorry if I sound a little too theatrical or political but some truths must be told as I see a lot of fora where people express racist or mindless throughts and rehash stupid stuff that would make Hitler or Stalin happy in their graves.


What do you think?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 02:15:41 AM by frinik » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 08:46:15 AM »

The read army was great (but i agree - Stalin was a murderer).
While the Read Army fought for freedom the nazi army fought for domination.
Have you seen the soviet victory parade?
I like this part of the parade (00:42):
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frinik
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 09:00:31 AM »

  I agree that the German army fought to subjugate Europe under Hitler's orders and the Red Army fought for the existence of the people of the Soviet Union but leaving politics and ideology aside my message was that most of the men fighting on either side did not care one fig about National Socialism or the supremacy of the Aryan race or the Victory of the Workers and Peasants state and Marxism-Leninism. They were ordinary men caught in a maelstrom of fire and violence that engulfed them and for many of them consum their lives.... About 372 000 tank crews died on both sides. Only German submarine crews experienced higher losses during the war

I have seen the victory parades in Moscow I even attended one  about 20 years ago. The point I am trying to make is to mark one day of remembrance of these men whose feats or exploits we are trying to emulate and reproduce in SF. This is not about victory or defeat because in the end neither the Soviet Union nor Germany won anything except grevious human losses and destruction. While Nazi Germany crumbled into ashes the Soviet system would endure for another 45 years and collapse leaving the people of the former Soviet blcok in terrible economic and social conditions they have yet to totally emerge from.

My idea was rather than focus for one day on battles and guns and tanks would be to swap or trade human stories about these men and perhaps some examples of humanity and kindness demonstrated by soldiers from both sides amidst the madness of that war.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 09:04:37 AM by frinik » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2011, 10:23:26 AM »

Talking about short lifes, check out the numbers of WW1 aviation. Some of the pilots not even take off (the planes explode on the ground). Half of the deaths were caused by mechanical behaviour. World War I fighter pilots had a typical life expectancy of two weeks. But the historical pics show happy pilots... mmm.... i wonder what they were smoking or drinking
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Kyth
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 12:17:33 AM »

Frinik,
Not having any original stories of my own, I'll just have to "borrow" one to lighten you up:

Quote
Sgt. Carmello’s Rattletrap Tank
( or the Day We Knew Italy Would Lose the War ) by Mark McLaughlin

Sgt. Carmello and his company of crack Carabinieri had been pinned down in the mountain pass for two very cold, uncomfortable and frightening hours. With his captain dead, casualties mounting and their advance stalled by heavy machine-gun fire from the heights above them, Sgt. Carmello and his only surviving officer, a young cadet lieutenant, called for armor support. The path to retreat was still clear, but none of the soldiers wanted to go back. After all, Carmello told his comrades, the men shooting at them were wearing skirts. Surely such men would not stand up to Italian tanks.

The sergeant was wrong. As he has often related in his halting yet clear English, that was the day he knew Italy would lose the war. It was also the day he vowed he would someday go to America, if only to get away from such idiots as Benito Mussolini.

In 1938 Carmello and many of the other men in his company of Sicilians had joined the Italian national police, the Carabinieri, to escape being drafted into the Italian army. Unfortunately for them, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini militarized the Carabinieri. Some of the Carabinieri were selected to serve as field police while others were formed into crack commando units. Mussolini, or “Il Duce,” as he preferred to be called, had personally reminded the Carabinieri of their regiment’s glorious history as an elite heavy cavalry regiment during the Risorgimento and Reunification of Italy in the previous century. The Carabinieri, Il Duce had proclaimed, had always been at the forefront of battle. Now they would lead the army in retracing the footsteps of the ancient legions to rebuild Mussolini’s New Roman Empire.

Those footsteps had taken some Carabinieri into Ethiopia, Libya and now Egypt, where they were confronting British General Archibald Wavell’s small Middle East Command. Carmello’s company had been spared the desert campaigns. They had been sent into newly conquered Albania, where they were selected to be the very tip of the spearhead of General Sebastiano Visconti-Prasca’s invasion of Greece in late October, 1940. The Carabinieri were to clear the difficult mountain roads along the Greco-Albanian frontier of “light resistance.” So far, however, like their brethren in the Alpini, Bersaglieri and other elite regiments in the advance guard of the Italian army, the Carabinieri had met with nothing but heavy fire.

Greek General Alexander Papagos had had many months to prepare for Visconti-Prasca. Papagos had built up a series of strong defensive lines in the difficult mountain terrain along the Greco-Albanian border. Although not as well-equipped as the modern, mechanized Italian army, Papagos had nearly as many men (150,000 vs 162,000 Italians), and he had positioned them well.

The men Papagos positioned in the mountain passes wore light olive green skirts, knee socks and shoes with little fluffy tassels. These were the “men in skirts” that Carmello say firing down on his Carabinieri. Little did he know at the time that these skirted warriors were the Evzones, the best shots in the Greek army. Tough, native mountain fighters with a tradition not unlike that of the Scottish Highlanders or the Italian Alpini, the Evzones manned the first line of defense: the mountain passes.

Carmello had lost too many men dueling with the Greek snipers. He ordered his soldiers to take cover in the rocks and cuts alongside the road. He saw no sense in exposing his men to danger when victory would be assured once the tanks arrived.

An hour later, he heard the telltale clankety-clank, rumble-rumble, whirr-whirr of bogie wheels as the Italian armor approached. His men began to cheer as the lead tank in the Italian armored column turned the corner and came up the road behind them.

The tank was alone.

One tank. That was all the Italian Tank Corps had sent. Carmello was a little downcast, but he did not let his men see his disappointment. At least it was not one of the little light machine-gun tanks (like the Carro Veloce 35). It was a real tank. A big tank. The best the Italians had made to date: an M.11/39 medium tank, with a real cannon -- a 37 mm gun.

The Evzones poured fire down on the M.11/39. Carmello’s Carabinieri jeered as machine-gun and rifle bullets bounced off its armor plates. The turret rotated to allow its 8 mm light machine-gun to spray the heights. The tank turned on its treads so that the main gun in the body of the tank could bear. It fired. A great “boom” echoed in the pass. Rocks flew in the air where the shell hit.

...and Sgt. Carmello remembers that there was also another strange banging sound, like a rattle, coming from the tank.

The tank fired again, and again and again. Each time the gun fired and recoiled, however, Carmello recalls, the rattling got louder. Then he notice that the armor was coming loose.

Italian tanks were not solid-cast. Plates of thin armor (30 mm in the case of the M.11/39) were bolted on to a metal frame. Unfortunately, the bolts tended to come loose, especially when the tanks were jostled going over rough terrain or when they were subjected to stress -- like the recoil of their gun. The tankers knew this; they carried special wrenches to tighten the bolts during rest stops.

Carmello tried to crawl to the tank, but the Evzones were still pouring fire down on his position. The tank fired again, and again and again....and then a plate fell off. The tankers were probably too excited or too busy choking from the dust and smoke to notice, and they fired again and again....and another plate fell off.

That is when Carmello heard another sound he has never forgotten: laughter. The Greeks stopped firing. They were laughing. As the dust began to clear Carmello could see why: there sat the tank, a half a dozen of its armor plates lying about, and the turret gunner sitting there, unprotected, for all to see.

The gunner kicked down and yelled to the driver to put the tank in gear and retreat -- but it would not go. One of the plates that had fallen off had become jammed in the bogie wheels. The turret gunner scrambled out of the skeleton turret and ran for the rocks. The driver and cannoneer jumped out and followed. As they cowered behind Carmello the sergeant looked around at the bewildered faces of his men ... and like a single man, they all stood up with their hands over their heads.

The rattletrap tank had been the last straw; it had convinced them all that Italy would never win this war.

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"What am I, chopped liver..?"

"Yes."
frinik
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Posts: 3145


« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 02:27:31 AM »

  HI Kyth thanks for the story very funny and entertaining! Grin  I wasn't being heavy just reflective! And by the way my suggestion was that we had a remembrance or sort of specila day to mark the end of the war on the 8th or 9th of May not today.... Wink

When I play those war sims whether SF or another it makes me realise that we are making play of what real men fought and died for. Evrytime I see those crews members on fire franctically running out of their burning tank in SF( very well rendered but gruesome effect) I cannot but help think that this was the fate of many tank crews during the war.When we shoot at targets, machine gun infantry with abandon, blast away with explosions and fire allowing our primeval and animalistic impulse to destroy and express our aggressiveness which bonds us a men whatever our race, culture or colour, we are just recreating for fun what was for million of men their daily dose of living hell. I know we all love and sometimes worship those machines of death whether we play tank sims, flight sims, submarines, first person shooters or other war and strategy games of ancient Rome, Napoleonic wars etc.  But I though how about having a day of truce to mark the end of what was the most destructive and ruthless war of modern times on the day that it ended and pay homage to these guys whose feats and fate we either talk about , read about or seomtimes try to emulate.

I remeber watching about 15 years ago a documentary about a German veteran of Stalingrad who had the luck to be wounded and evacuated before the 
6yth Army and Von Paulus surrendered. He was in his 70s and visiting then Volgagrad with his wife touring the battlefield and going to his comrades graves. He met, by chance, a former Soviet veteran, also an old man, who lived in Volgagrad. The did not speak the same language but through an interpreter they were introduced, cried together, hugged together and went touring the graves of both Soviet and German comrades they had lost.It was very touching and moving to see these guys who would have tried killing each other 50 years earlier meeting and befriendding as only men who had lived through the same hell could.

End of reflection.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 11:38:24 AM by frinik » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 10:01:24 AM »

The good thing about WW1/WW2 games is that we are playing a recreation of battles from the past.

What i find DISTURBING is the games that recreate ACTUAL battles from Afghanistan or other places where the people is still killing and dying (COD modern warfare for example). People are not built from a group of pixels. I hate those games, never played one.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:06:25 AM by POW » Logged
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