No German 88mm flak guns in OP Star?

[andrey12345]

Iron Front 44, Liberation models flying turrets in a very satisfying manner.  I've noticed it mostly with Shermans.  75mm or Tiger 88mm hits in the turret that penetrate occasionally cause a catastrophic explosion and a "headless horseman".  I have no clue of the details of how it's modeled.

Yes but it have only 4 tanks in release and few in DLC. Let me remind you that in the OpStar have the greater variety of tanks and vehicles. But of course we can do a few tanks with fly turrets too and may be with cockpits  .  But such an exchange tanks types vs flying turrets does not make sense within the genre of wargame.

[andrey12345]

Mius front might have 88s in it, all German defense all the time!

In Mius Germans have mostly: leIGs, AT guns like Paks, LefH, sIGs (on different chassis) and French based guns like Pak 97/38.

[FB_AGA]

and dozen FLAK 88 and dozens 2cm and 3,7cm flaks  especially SS units.

[andrey12345]

and dozen FLAK 88 and dozens 2cm and 3,7cm flaks  especially SS units.

They were used as AT guns?
Ok. Then we will have to remove the SS  .

[FB_AGA]

How they were used by SS in counter offensive actions I have no idea. Self-propelled 2cm and 3,7 often were used as infantry close support.

But towed 2cm were used by 23PzD since first engagement in fights for the hill 213,4.

Flak88 were in 16 mot. ID, but there is no evidence that they have lost any, so seems they were in the last line and were used as long range support artillery. Actually, I am waiting for a book about 16 mot ID (over 2000 pages  ) maybe there is some info about this fights.

[Tanker]

and dozen FLAK 88 and dozens 2cm and 3,7cm flaks  especially SS units.

They were used as AT guns?
Ok. Then we will have to remove the SS  .

The Germans used the 88 in a dual purpose mode whenever the situation called for it.  The limitation against tanks and troops would have been available ammunition of the correct type I imagine.

[Tanker]

Mius front might have 88s in it, all German defense all the time!

In Mius Germans have mostly: leIGs, AT guns like Paks, LefH, sIGs (on different chassis) and French based guns like Pak 97/38.

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

[Tanker]

Iron Front 44, Liberation models flying turrets in a very satisfying manner.  I've noticed it mostly with Shermans.  75mm or Tiger 88mm hits in the turret that penetrate occasionally cause a catastrophic explosion and a "headless horseman".  I have no clue of the details of how it's modeled.

Yes but it have only 4 tanks in release and few in DLC. Let me remind you that in the OpStar have the greater variety of tanks and vehicles. But of course we can do a few tanks with fly turrets too and may be with cockpits  .  But such an exchange tanks types vs flying turrets does not make sense within the genre of wargame.

Of course.  My post wasn't a knock on how you've done your game Andrey.

[whukid]

Mius front might have 88s in it, all German defense all the time!

In Mius Germans have mostly: leIGs, AT guns like Paks, LefH, sIGs (on different chassis) and French based guns like Pak 97/38.

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

How do you think they decided what gun to put on the Tiger? The Flak 36 was easily the most effective AT gun the Germans had during the war, especially the early years. No other AT gun the Germans had in possession could penetrate the chassis of French and British tanks, and until the Pak 38 and Pak 40, the Russian KV series.

Kurt Meyer called it the most effective weapon the German infantry fielded throughout the entire conflict. In fact, it was rare the flak guns were used for their intended purpose, as they were ineffective against fast moving ground attack aircraft

[andrey12345]

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

May be, but no info.

[whukid]

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

May be, but no info.

wat 

[andrey12345]

Mius front might have 88s in it, all German defense all the time!

In Mius Germans have mostly: leIGs, AT guns like Paks, LefH, sIGs (on different chassis) and French based guns like Pak 97/38.

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

How do you think they decided what gun to put on the Tiger? The Flak 36 was easily the most effective AT gun the Germans had during the war, especially the early years. No other AT gun the Germans had in possession could penetrate the chassis of French and British tanks, and until the Pak 38 and Pak 40, the Russian KV series.

Kurt Meyer called it the most effective weapon the German infantry fielded throughout the entire conflict. In fact, it was rare the flak guns were used for their intended purpose, as they were ineffective against fast moving ground attack aircraft

It's more like a legend. Given the fact that they were practically not present in the infantry divisions, so just looks weird. I'm not talking about the fact that such a huge damn thing with near-zero mobility - just an easy target. If Germans have Pak-38 and Pak-40 why all this circus with horses need?  

P.S. If it was such a best AT gun itself, why put it on the Tiger?

[andrey12345]

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

May be, but no info.

wat 

Do you have data (valid from the archives) on battles on the Mius river (July-August) of 88 that were used as a means of AT? share? 
Not all sorts of books that some myths erected in the category of truth - namely, what kind of division, how many pieces as were used As AT - primary sources.

[Flashburn]

The 88 could be pressed into service as an AT gun, but it seems the Germans would do this out of dire need.  Like their front was about to get Massively breached by tanks.  The 88 was MOST certainly used in its intended role of aaa gun. Just look at all the footage of bombing missions.  All those puffs of death where fired by 88's.  To strip units of their 88's to go fight tanks leaves rear areas of supply, communications, marshaling yards at all that more open to destruction.   That was a greater threat than a few tanks running around blowing everything up.  In fact with Germany under round the clock bombing from US/UK bombers my guess is 88's got scarce towards the front.  German industry was able to produce great weapons.....they where NOT able to produce in large enough numbers. Total tiger 1 production was just over 1000 tanks in 3 years.  Tiger 2 was like 260 or something.  OUt put of US, USSR, and UK medium tanks alone was approaching 100000 tanks by 1945.  Not sure wtf Germany was....  maybe 15000 in 7 years?  SO ya....if nothing else available Germans could and would strip aaa defenses if they HAD too fight tanks.  But like every German pz 3 and 4 got called a tiger often enough by soldiers on the ground I am sure the same can be said of every anti tank gun getting called an 88.  And the panthers 75mm ended up as germany's best all around tank gun.  It was designed and intended to fight tanks.  The 88 was re-purposed for anti tank use.  Still that in like 1300 less 88's that where firing flak at the fly boys.  Which certainly slowed production of german war machine.   

If you look at how the 88 WAS used as an anti tank weapon, well it had diminishing effect as the war progressed.  Rommel out of desperation employed 88 in France as there was nothing to stop heavy armor units.  Against tanks like matilda with its puny 40mm 2 pounder with no HE shell.. well its going to do well if placed in smart locations.  Same in North Africa up to the time tanks get bigger guns like 75mm, 76, 76.2mm guns.  They do not even have to get a direct hit to take out.  Just close enough to shread the gun crew.  As it is static... well call arty down on it.  ON the Russian steppe I do not see this thing being vary effective after it fired off a few rounds. In France after D day they where indeed stripped from aaa units and used again as anti tank guns.  But they all got blown up now did they not?  Ya they killed alot of stuff doing it.  But it was not 1940 anymore. 

[Tanker]

Mius front might have 88s in it, all German defense all the time!

In Mius Germans have mostly: leIGs, AT guns like Paks, LefH, sIGs (on different chassis) and French based guns like Pak 97/38.

Yes, but did they employ the 88 as an AT gun in the battle?  Of course the smaller guns were more numerous, that's only normal.

How do you think they decided what gun to put on the Tiger? The Flak 36 was easily the most effective AT gun the Germans had during the war, especially the early years. No other AT gun the Germans had in possession could penetrate the chassis of French and British tanks, and until the Pak 38 and Pak 40, the Russian KV series.

Kurt Meyer called it the most effective weapon the German infantry fielded throughout the entire conflict. In fact, it was rare the flak guns were used for their intended purpose, as they were ineffective against fast moving ground attack aircraft

Yes of course I know the 88 was the most effective AT gun and the reason it was put into the Tiger.  That's not what my question was about.  I asked if the 88mm flak guns were present in the Mius River battle that GT is going to make a game about.

The 88 was not intended for fast moving ground attack aircraft.  That was the job of the 20mm and 37mm guns.  The 88mm was for high flying bomber formations.

[Tanker]

P.S. If it was such a best AT gun itself, why put it on the Tiger?

What else would you put in your best tank but your best anti-tank gun?  Seems obvious that combining the power of the 88 with armor was superior.

[Dane49]

In George Nipes book"Decision in the Ukraine" He mentions that a mixture of reinforcements were rushed from the flanks of the breakthrough to help contain it and 88mm AA guns were included.

How many and what units they were attached to is a mystery.

Generally the Germans would put together a mixture of whatever was on hand and could be spared and formed them into task forces(Kampfgruppes).

These were of a temporary nature and usually formed around a nucleus unit and given the name of the senior commander in charge of this task.ie 1st company II battalion 385th regiment(reinforced)Kampegruppe (insert name) ,what the reinforcement elements consist of can be anything.

There may or may not be a 88mm AA gun it all depended on what was on hand and deemed useful for the task when the KG was ordered to move.

Then the KG may be disbanded once it reached its destination and fall under the command of an even larger organization.Tracking these individual AT assets are very difficult because they don't show up in these units TO&E roster and would usually return to the parent unit when they were no longer needed or the commander of these assets asked for them back.

This is a grey area because the 88s were not normally assigned this way and would only show up in the parent units order of battle eventhough 1-2 guns may have been detached to bolster one of these KGs.

So good luck trying to track down whether or not a 88 saw action in a AT role during this battle and finding documentation to support this.

[andrey12345]

P.S. If it was such a best AT gun itself, why put it on the Tiger?

What else would you put in your best tank but your best anti-tank gun?  Seems obvious that combining the power of the 88 with armor was superior.

But this brings on sad thoughts about that by itself (without Tiger), it was not very good, is it?
Otherwise not very clear why it needed such expensive appendage in the form of iron box, which were able to make a little over a thousand  .

P.S. What about Panther tank? Why do better German tank did not get a better AT gun? 

[Dane49]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

[andrey12345]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

It was not used in those battles that we are modeling.