great game BUT save game functionality is *terrible*

[sandman2575]

Andrey and company -- I have nothing but praise for you and for the Achtung Panzer series.  It is truly excellent

HOWEVER,

the save game system is dreadful and making me pull my hair out.

I've had several times now where I lose a saved game (ingame tactical battle for a campaign), because when i "Save and Exit," I get "Critical error
001: An error has occurred while initializing the program".  This WIPES OUT any progress i've made in the battle because the Save Game has *disappeared* when I go back into the campaign menu.  (i.e. the "floppy disk" icon is no longer there, but just the "continue campaign" arrow which brings you back to square one).

In other words, I can be playing a big tactical battle, successfully "Save and Exit" game progress *several times,* but if *any one "Save and Exit" fails* and gives me "Critical error 001," I've now lost ALL the progress from that battle because the Save game is no longer available.

This just happened to me *again*, about 40 minutes into a large battle -- I had been safe and 'save exited' a few times to save progress, and then BAM, a save & exit Fails and all my progress is wiped out.

Why on earth does the save game functionality have to be so bizarre?  Why is it *Impossible* to access anything but the 'latest' saved game?  By doing that, you ensure that any problem / ctd etc. which corrupts the save makes you lose all your in-game progress.

I see that saved games are saved in:  APOS\users\profiles\[randomly generated # profile folder -- mine is "526F62"]

is it really NOT POSSIBLE TO ACCESS saved game files once they have 'disappeared' from the game menu???

In all, I have found the game very stable -- with the exception of these Critical Error 001 that i get, much too often, when I try to "Save and Exit".  I'm running Windows 7 x64.  my system definitely meets the recommended specs. 

i appreciate any help you can give.  i love this game, but i will stop playing if i am worried that whenever i get deep into a battle, 30-40 minutes, i could lose everything because i might crash on Save and Exit......

[Schuck]

Hey Sandman,
Ive had the same thing.
I have the battle time set to 3 hours, and on several occasions after 2 hours+ i have hit  "save and exit" only to get
the Critical Error 001 message, and lose the saved game.
It drives me up the wall to!!
And as you say, it doesnt save the game in stages, so you cant load a previous save point.
Most annoying

[Capt Sam]

Same problem here.  This is a major issue.

[MrSquiggless]

Just a thought but can you find location and copy the saved game file at frequent
intervals in another location and copy them back in if this happens.
I am starting into the game and will be doing this until this is fixed.
I also prefer longer three hour games played carefully but have not yet progressed far in my first.

Andry or anyone please tell me where saved games files are in the game.

Cheers

Good game concept.

[sandman2575]

I'm glad to see some others out there who think this is a major issue!  i couldn't agree more.

@MrSquiggless --  that is an interesting notion about backing up saved game files, but from what I can tell, i don't think it will work.  Now, i am not a programmer, so i am hardly an expert in these kinds of things, but i cannot at all figure out how APOS "recognizes" the saved game files so that you can access it as the 'floppy disk' icon in the game menu.  The question isn't "find out where the save-game files are, and just back them up" -- we know where they're saved -- the question is, "what causes the 'floppy disk' to *disappear*, preventing me from accessing the game, when we know the save-game files are be right there in the users\profiles folder???"

If anyone can weigh in on this -- Andrey? -- I'd love to hear thoughts for how to work around these problems.

If there are no workarounds, Graviteam, this really should be Priority Number 1 for the next patch.  What good is it to update things like "new uniforms for Czech units" while the save game system is so buggy?

APOS NEEDS the following:

1. Ability to Save *without having to quit the game*
2. Ability to access *more than just most recent save*
3. ABOVE ALL:  Fix bugs that are causing Saved games to disappear  (for ex., if you access Options while in a campaign, your saved game disappears.  WHY???)

Maybe the only work-around for this:  Never save your games...

[MrSquiggless]

Great game concept and will take time to fully sort everything.

Sandman I have made a note not to access options within a mission.

Frequent saves would be good as some stages of a mission are worth replaying.

Its a good game. Large map size is terrific and unpredictability of enemy AI is tremendous.
 

[andrey12345]

1. Ability to Save *without having to quit the game*

No, This allows you to pass the game in a terrible regime  save-load, save-load, save-load 
This is unacceptable. And we will always stand in this way.

2. Ability to access *more than just most recent save*

Savegame in any game only need to be if you suddenly go away. 2 or more saves, save without exiting and so on - spoil the gameplay.

3. ABOVE ALL:  Fix bugs that are causing Saved games to disappear  (for ex., if you access Options while in a campaign, your saved game disappears.  WHY???)

Savegame depends on some options, and can't be loaded if you change some.
There are two options: delete it or let the user load and catch bugs. We chose the first.

[sandman2575]

andrey --

I can live without #2 (accessing more than most recent save) --

However,

The idea that #1 -- saving your game and continuing play *without* having to quit and relaunch -- the idea that this basic functionality that is *standard* for nearly all games is somehow a *liability* is simply nonsense.  i guarantee if you took a poll of people who have purchased APOS asking if they would like the ability to save *without* quitting, the overwhelming majority would say YES.

Also, if you can't change Options without losing the save -- and I am AMAZED to find out that *losing* your save is a FEATURE of accessing options (!!) -- then simply have the program Lock Out the Options menu if you are involved in a campaign.  I would much rather be unable to access Options than lose a saved game, if it has to be a choice between the two.  Again, I suspect I am not alone in thinking this way.

But the bottom line is this:  APOS has a very unorthodox save-game feature that needlessly makes the ability to save in-game progress a problem.  I'm afraid to save my games or do things like accidentally open some menu in the game lobby for fear of losing hours of progress. 

Again, I say all this as a huge fan of Achtung Panzer and of Graviteam.  This is not trolling.  But I am scratching my head to figure out why such a briliant game as APOS needs to be impaired by an unreliable and mysterious save-game system.  It's like you've built a Ferrari but gave it no reverse gear -- i.e. something everyone expects is missing, and you can live without it, but it's very very frustrating.  Especially because the game is a Ferrari -- it's awesome.

[andrey12345]

The idea that #1 -- saving your game and continuing play *without* having to quit and relaunch -- the idea that this basic functionality that is *standard* for nearly all games is somehow a *liability* is simply nonsense.  i guarantee if you took a poll of people who have purchased APOS asking if they would like the ability to save *without* quitting, the overwhelming majority would say YES.

This "feature" leads to cheat - you continue play and see what AI is doing next. Than reload.
Why should hide the AIs actions (no marks on unseen units etc.)​​, do it some unpredictability and so on?

For example great game Close Combat completely without savegames and seems great from year to year 

Also, if you can't change Options without losing the save -- and I am AMAZED to find out that *losing* your save is a FEATURE of accessing options (!!) -- then simply have the program Lock Out the Options menu if you are involved in a campaign.  I would much rather be unable to access Options than lose a saved game, if it has to be a choice between the two.  Again, I suspect I am not alone in thinking this way.

It's technical issue. May be in future we add warning message box when you can lose the savegame.

But the bottom line is this:  APOS has a very unorthodox save-game feature that needlessly makes the ability to save in-game progress a problem.  I'm afraid to save my games or do things like accidentally open some menu in the game lobby for fear of losing hours of progress. 

Deleted savegame from option access is the only point on which progress can be.

Again, I say all this as a huge fan of Achtung Panzer and of Graviteam.  This is not trolling.  But I am scratching my head to figure out why such a briliant game as APOS needs to be impaired by an unreliable and mysterious save-game system.  It's like you've built a Ferrari but gave it no reverse gear -- i.e. something everyone expects is missing, and you can live without it, but it's very very frustrating.  Especially because the game is a Ferrari -- it's awesome.

I think you are very serious about saving opportunities
First lost _only_ savegame in tacticalbattle, but not all progress.
Second to lost it, you need to make an effort. I do not understand why go to the option if the game works (ie, do not understand ), but if you managed to play a long time and still make savegame, then it obviously works  .

[Capt Sam]

However you want to design the game, that's fine by me.  Only this is a bug, where the game crashes when saving and exiting.  That's different than an opinion!

[sandman2575]

I think you are very serious about saving opportunities
First lost _only_ savegame in tacticalbattle, but not all progress.
Second to lost it, you need to make an effort. I do not understand why go to the option if the game works (ie, do not understand ), but if you managed to play a long time and still make savegame, then it obviously works  .

andrey, i appreciate your patience in responding to my points.  however, i don't appreciate the sarcasm.  i am a paying customer who has bought every game in your Achtung Panzer series.  and yes, i am very serious about being unhappy that i've lost hours of gameplay due to APOS's highly unusual and buggy save game feature. 

i find it exceedingly strange that there is no "Save and continue to play" option because you are worried that the player might use it as a cheat.  Seriously, why do you even care if the player 'cheats'?  Against the AI??  Look, i don't think i'd use "Save and continue to play" as an exploit to beat the AI nor do I think most players would.  I *want* the AI to be challenging.  Why would I buy a game and go out of my way to exploit the AI?  At the very least then, provide 2 options:  Save and continue to play, and Save and exit.  That way, the player can choose for himself what he wants to do.  Bottom line:  Save and exit as the only option is very annoying at best, but unfortunately at worst -- and as it currently stands -- it's bugged and creating problems for players trying to enjoy the game they paid for.

[whukid]

Relax bro. Andrey's just saying that the save-game feature would be extremely buggy and prone to cheating. By Saving the game without exiting, the player is bypassing the "Fog of War", and it's apparently a major deal to the developers that their players play fair, which is just fine.

Poking fun at an arbitrary matter gone all serious is hardly a reason to get all upset. Relax dude, it's just a game.

[sandman2575]

Relax dude, it's just a game.

thanks.  care to offer me a refund? 

[Kyth]

Hold your horses  To date, Graviteam has been very responsive with their support, so I think we can expect a patch for the 'Critical error 001' bug fairly soon.

As for a workaround, as suggested by McSquiggles, make a backup copy of the savegame file. Probably the same bug caused a file corruption and prevented you from accessing the savegame.

[Kyth]

One more suggestion, just in case:

Do not install the game in the 'Program Files' folder.

[andrey12345]

If we have some time, in the May patch will be some changes in this feature.

[henri5]

If I may sound off, I also think that the saved games are a mess, and why the heck should the game designers care if the customer wants to "cheat" and reload a saved game? More to the point, I was doing one of the only 3 AARs (I wrote two of them) on the Matrix AAR forum (RedMarcus wrote some better ones in the general forum), and I had to stop the game just when it got really interesting because I somehow lost my saved game. I spent hours doing those AARs to help the game increase its customer base, so I am not a complainer who wants to  criticize the game. I was so pissed off that I did not play the game again nor go back to the forum for a month! So 'Molodetz' for the game, and thumbs down for the saved games.

Back to `cheating`, I think it is perfectly legitimate to reload a saved game against the AI to try another strategy, and I don`t think it is the business of game designers to control how customers play a game. So I do hope that this will be reconsidered and changed. Besides, you are losing potential customers because of this wrongheaded idea.

Henri

[Redmarkus4]

I was 90 minutes into a gripping battle when I saw this post.  I pressed escape and selected 'Save & Exit'.  The game crashed with the critical error 001 message - the first crash since I fixed this problem by reinstalling.

When I had the problem before it was during play, but I was using the Escape/save game feature quite often.

It was a large battle. so I am figuring that there is a memory issue, although I have a high spec PC with 4GB RAM and a 512 Graphics card.

I found the auto save file and it's over 320MB in size.

Andrey - maybe your guys can look at the memory management?  The game was also slowing down quite a lot before the crash.

I will change my graphics settings and try again.