No German 88mm flak guns in OP Star?

[orson]

P.S. What about Panther tank? Why do better German tank did not get a better AT gun? 

Far be it from me to try and educate you in why the Tiger was built .... why did the Germans build any tank ?  

But as for the Panther not having a good gun .... sorry what ? The long 75mm was not a good AT weapon is that what your saying ?

You obviously know about size and weight constraints ...they could possibly have fitted an 88m to the panther , but the 75mm was more than adequate so they didn't need to ... a bigger gun required more power , bigger turret .. the panther would not have been the success that it was

[andrey12345]

Far be it from me to try and educate you in why the Tiger was built .... why did the Germans build any tank ?  

Not all German tanks have 8.8 Flak based guns, and even let's say most do not have.

But as for the Panther not having a good gun .... sorry what ? The long 75mm was not a good AT weapon is that what your saying ?

Some players want to convince me that the best AT gun was 8.8 flak. Ask they - bad or good a Panther gun. Not me

[orson]

Far be it from me to try and educate you in why the Tiger was built .... why did the Germans build any tank ?  

Not all German tanks have 8.8 Flak based guns, and even let's say most do not have.

But as for the Panther not having a good gun .... sorry what ? The long 75mm was not a good AT weapon is that what your saying ?

Some players want to convince me that the best AT gun was 8.8 flak. Ask they - bad or good a Panther gun. Not me

Personally I do like the big guns , but with that comes the same problem with any of the previous increase in calibre and subsequent armour increases ... the bigger the gun , the bigger the armour to defeat it ..and so it goes on ... lots of similar increases in one sides capabilities through the war ..starting from the tiny tanks onwards .

I find it hard enough defeating MkIII's in a T34 thanks .. dont mention Tigers lol ... and you want bigger  

Its inevitable that the whole war gets covered and I prefer the gradual arms race style of increase , don't want to jump in at the back of the book with Tiger II and IS2's .... but it would be sweet eventually 

[Dane49]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

It was not used in those battles that we are modeling.

The game needs a Panther,regardless of the battles being depicted by the game.

[andrey12345]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

It was not used in those battles that we are modeling.

The game needs a Panther,regardless of the battles being depicted by the game.

No, better is Pak 97/38, Wurfrahmen 40, Sig.33, 15.5cm K416(f) etc 
Panther is not serious and only to be indulged.

[Dane49]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

It was not used in those battles that we are modeling.

The game needs a Panther,regardless of the battles being depicted by the game.

No, better is Pak 97/38, Wurfrahmen 40, Sig.33, 15.5cm K416(f) etc 
Panther is not serious and only to be indulged.

 

[andrey12345]

Why does best tactical game not have Panther tank?

It was not used in those battles that we are modeling.

The game needs a Panther,regardless of the battles being depicted by the game.

No, better is Pak 97/38, Wurfrahmen 40, Sig.33, 15.5cm K416(f) etc 
Panther is not serious and only to be indulged.

 

Do not cry, I think something out with this 

[Dane49]

Do not cry, I think something out with this  Grin

That would be really..... 8)

[Flashburn]

Yes history as a guide.....  LOL.  Problem solved.  And the largly unknown repurpased french 75mm gun in the pak (and also US 75mm GMC) which used same gun as base BTW.  As to panthers and bla bla bla.  If they where in battle than they should be in game.  To much is convoluted in the reimagined historys of WW2 now a days.  Look at most ww2 games.  Every german is running around with stg44's and tiger tanks.  Both weapons comprising at best 1 percent of overall numbers of german weapons used.  The 88 was inferior in armor penitration to the german 75mm gun on the Panther.  But was retained on tiger2 and some SPG's as its HE shell was certainly better for dealing this soft targets.  Why people in the WEST go tiger.panther crazy but DO NOT go t34-85 and IS series at same time.  These vehicles if acutatly protrayed will HURT the over all game more than anything else IMO.  ANd the numbers of Pz4 where many many times higher than tigers and panthers.  IMO it is best to leave all that till balanced out with more advanced ALLIED vehicles can get made.  And the tiger now in APOS is massive head ache if not playing as Germans.  And IF playing as Germans can make game to damned easy IMO.  The ai is not so great at calling in massive arty strikes and laying uber traps like a human player can do.   

Many people do not know or forget that in THIS time period of war the Germans where by and large still recovering from the inital shock of Red Army's armor designs.  German SUPER weapons would not really get on the battlefield in any numbers till late 43 and 44.  They did have the TIGER.  But that was a counter to the shock of tanks like matillda and the French char B that where damned near impossible to kill with 37 and 50mm anti tank weapons.  Then they enocuntered the t34 and Kv 1's on the eastern front which actually had good guns to match thier armor.  PZ3 and early pz4's where at ToTAL disadvantage in tank to tank fighting.  Better German tactics and tank layout of pz3 and 4 is what held them together while panther got designed and fielded. Tiger was in low numbers in special units and good luck getting more than 50 miles without the damned thing braking down. Meaning it could blow a hole in your lines but could not exploit the breach. 

[Tanker]

Far be it from me to try and educate you in why the Tiger was built .... why did the Germans build any tank ?  

Not all German tanks have 8.8 Flak based guns, and even let's say most do not have.

But as for the Panther not having a good gun .... sorry what ? The long 75mm was not a good AT weapon is that what your saying ?

Some players want to convince me that the best AT gun was 8.8 flak. Ask they - bad or good a Panther gun. Not me

"Best" is a subjective term Andrey.  Why not make it simpler and just focus on which German gun that was used in an anti tank role could penetrate the most armor at the greatest range?  Without doing the research I surmise it would be the 88mm gun, not the 75mm gun.  The 88mm flak cannon was on occasion pressed into service in an anti tank role.  In pure penetration, range and accuracy it was probably superior to smaller caliber guns.  So by that criteria alone it was the "best" anti tank gun.  If you chose other criteria such as transportability, or concealability, the 88mm flak cannon was not the "best" anti tank gun.  N.B.  English writers tend to distinguish between anti tank guns (towed, non-self propelled) and tank cannons or SPGs.  

I'm sure if the Germans could have shoe horned an 88mm gun into the Panther, without increasing size and weight of the vehicle, they would have.

Edit:Apparently the 75mm L70 was higher velocity than the 88mm L56 used in the Tiger I and therefore could penetrate more armor.  The 88mm L71 in the Tiger II had higher velocity than either.

[Dane49]

I don't recall ever mentioning that I wanted to see the Panther included in any of the campaign battles,especially if they weren't present.

But I would like to see the Panther in the game so I could use it in Quick Battles.
Some of you realism only guys are really imposing some un-needed restrictions to the overall enjoyment of the game.

[Tanker]

I don't recall ever mentioning that I wanted to see the Panther included in any of the campaign battles,especially if they weren't present.

But I would like to see the Panther in the game so I could use it in Quick Battles.
Some of you realism only guys are really imposing some un-needed restrictions to the overall enjoyment of the game.

LOL no kidding right?  Would anybody really go to hell if this game had a sandbox component to it for qb play?

[Flashburn]

I don't recall ever mentioning that I wanted to see the Panther included in any of the campaign battles,especially if they weren't present.

But I would like to see the Panther in the game so I could use it in Quick Battles.
Some of you realism only guys are really imposing some un-needed restrictions to the overall enjoyment of the game.

No I just think all that super weapon crap should be handled LATER in a 1944/1945 campaign.  Panthers VS t34-85's.  Tigers vs IS series.  To do now takes resources away from actual or little known stuff where those resources are better spent.  Or maybe a Kursk sort of campaign..  Where the early panthers WHERE employed.  To go down the road of what every OTHER game does in turn makes GTOS series just another EVERY other game.  The fact that K42 WAS not that is what hooked me into this stuff.  History was important to a MUCH larger degree.  

[Dane49]

Realistically there was a whole Brigade of Panthers near the Kharkov area in the Summer of 43.
We have maps of the Kharkov area.The Panther was present during this time period and I would like to use it to simulate other battles than the ones that are in the game.

I mainly play Quick battles and the campaigns though fun only go so far before I run out of replay value for them.

I'm sorry you don't like the Panther,but I like it and wish to see it in the game.

[andrey12345]

I don't recall ever mentioning that I wanted to see the Panther included in any of the campaign battles,especially if they weren't present.

But I would like to see the Panther in the game so I could use it in Quick Battles.
Some of you realism only guys are really imposing some un-needed restrictions to the overall enjoyment of the game.

LOL no kidding right?  Would anybody really go to hell if this game had a sandbox component to it for qb play?

If we could get models of vehicles ready without spending resources, then definitely yes - we can do everything from the first tanks to space ships, and anyone that does not interfere. But the reality is that - each model is quite costly and we have to choose - to make some popular or what needed in operations.

[andrey12345]

Realistically there was a whole Brigade of Panthers near the Kharkov area in the Summer of 43.
We have maps of the Kharkov area.

Not those map that are needed in the summer 43 battles were in other places.
But I think soon we will offer a solution to this problem, even before the Mius.

[Flashburn]

So who is making a panther tank then?  LOL  Or 88 DOH forgot the context of post.

[andrey12345]

"Best" is a subjective term Andrey.  

Yes of course. And so I'm very skeptical about phrases like - 8.8 flak is the best AT gun of the Wehrmacht, or something like that.
I agree that it is well advertised, yes, but best ... may be no. Pak-40/KwK-40 more suitable as AT - more quantity, more frequent deals with tanks (as they were in the presence and in the infantry divisions) - best than 8.8.

Why not make it simpler and just focus on which German gun that was used in an anti tank role could penetrate the most armor at the greatest range?  

Here somewhere else should appear the word - is enough. 15 cm guns even better tool against tanks, they can even shoot HE to tank, the results of the most catastrophically when hit, but mainly AT guns is 5 or 7.5 cm tried to do. Is enough - practically no problems with the transportation, concealment and supply ammunition.

[Flanker15]

Here somewhere else should appear the word - is enough. 15 cm guns even better tool against tanks, they can even shoot HE to tank, the results of the most catastrophically when hit, but mainly AT guns is 5 or 7.5 cm tried to do. Is enough - practically no problems with the transportation, concealment and supply ammunition.

The SU-152 is gonna be great!

[andrey12345]

Here somewhere else should appear the word - is enough. 15 cm guns even better tool against tanks, they can even shoot HE to tank, the results of the most catastrophically when hit, but mainly AT guns is 5 or 7.5 cm tried to do. Is enough - practically no problems with the transportation, concealment and supply ammunition.

The SU-152 is gonna be great!

No, it have small ammo count, small horizontal degrees and long time to load. Plus relatively thin armor. As AT role not so good.