March 2013 update (news and discussion)

[Lemonade]

About straggling... I can't argue with you, because in this I think you're absolutely right.

And speaking about penal battalions, there are interesting Russian short series worth watching, called: "The Penal Battalion" (Shtrafbat I think it's called in original). Although you won't experience any battle scenes like from another epic russian movie "Osvobozhdenie: Napravleniye glavnogo udara" or Polish "Czterej Pancerni i Pies" series.

[Flashburn]

About straggling... I can't argue with you, because in this I think you're absolutely right.

And speaking about penal battalions, there are interesting Russian short series worth watching, called: "The Penal Battalion" (Shtrafbat I think it's called in original). Although you won't experience any battle scenes like from another epic russian movie "Osvobozhdenie: Napravleniye glavnogo udara" or Polish "Czterej Pancerni i Pies" series.

Indeed they certainly can get spread out all over the place.  Support guys get left in the dust and the like.  But what is the answer to this?  Make the unit move at the same speed as slowest soldiers?  Or what?  Unfortunatly less tired soldiers can not swap out heavy loads from exhausted soldiers.  It does make manuver quite a challenge.  If you have apc, tanks, or even trucks to move around guys its ok.  But if only on foot.........  And heaven help the AT gun and Howizer crews without vehicles to tow their guns.  Man handle them is not going to go well.  Short distance was all that was for anyways. 

And i am getting high off model paint right now.  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! 

[Dane49]

Huffing Paint again FB?Well,can't say I never suspected it!

[Flashburn]

Huffing Paint again FB?Well,can't say I never suspected it!

Ya what I do for referance stuff..........  Actually 1st time.  But had no clue wtf the underside of M3 halftracks looked like.  Got me a high end model with all that stuff in model to include transmission, engine, cooling fan for engine, well every damned thing.  1st model kit I have made in 17 years.  THis one is really freaken nice.  Fills in all the blanks of my photos and blue prints for m3.    I feel sort of bad that I am only giving it the real basic treatment (the model kit).  But going to get another I think of m3 GMC.  That one will get the delux treatment.  HAve a space in book self that it can fill up nice next to all my ww2 ref books.

[wodin]

I agree the fatigue at present is over modeled. Seems these troops aren't fit to fight. The men should easy be able to knock out 10 km a day in poor weather or more with no straggelers.

Reading books on the East front and units retreating in harsh conditions, if the soldiers where like the current pixel troops no one would have got further than 10 km's in the mass retreats during Uranus for instance. Italians considered poor troops lots managed to retreat in terrible conditions being chased for nearly a month before reaching safety and covering many many Km's.

Sorry but I've stopped playing the game..micromanagement is becoming too much and having ti micromanage for a mechanic that isn't realistic is too annoying. If this issue isn't looked at and toned down abit I'm no longer buying into Graviteam tactics.

[Txema]

Hi Andrey,

I have been testing the new patch in Quick battles and I have noticed an odd thing with the "radio indicator".

When I choose a heavy tank platoon (for example an early one) I can see that it includes Tigers and Panzer III tanks. The Tigers have the black "radio indicator" indicating that their radio covers the entire area of battle. The Panzer III tanks have the red "radio indicator", indicating that the tank has only a radio receiver. But when I order a Panzer III tank to start moving the red "radio indicator" dissapears... Why ?? Does it loose its radio capability when moving?? When the Panzer III stops the red "radio indicator" appears again. At the same time, when looking at the square with the officer cap, the blue "horizontal line indicator" is always present for the Panzer III tank, indicating that it is under direct control of the immediate commander, but there is no "radio indicator" for the Panzer III tank at that square with the officer cap. Why?? The Panzer III tank is under direct control of the commander by radio so it seems that a "radio indicator" should appear at the square with the officer cap.

In any case, is it historically accurate to model that the Panzer III tanks had only a radio receiver?

Can anybody else reproduce these problems?

Thanks for your help !!


Txema

[andrey12345]

I have been testing the new patch in Quick battles and I have noticed an odd thing with the "radio indicator".

When I choose a heavy tank platoon (for example an early one) I can see that it includes Tigers and Panzer III tanks. The Tigers have the black "radio indicator" indicating that their radio covers the entire area of battle. The Panzer III tanks have the red "radio indicator", indicating that the tank has only a radio receiver. But when I order a Panzer III tank to start moving the red "radio indicator" dissapears... Why ??

Please give a screenshot with and w/o indicator.

In any case, is it historically accurate to model that the Panzer III tanks had only a radio receiver?

Early versions (In game early models of Pz III tank) has reciever, except platoon commander tanks.

[Aces]

Hi all,

Quite a good reference on panzer and german AFV radio equipment, as Andrey metioned the early-war tanks only had a receiver (Fu2) except for squad leader vehicles (Fu5 transmitter and receiver).

http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/germrads.html

BTW can anyone please explain how the mark target with flares feature works in the latest beta version.

Kind Regards

Aces

[Dane49]

Andrey,

Was reading the Russian forums and saw the mention of foreign players concerned about fatigue.

It's not fatigue that is the issue,I think We all appreciate that long marches in full combat gear during certain weather conditions can be exhausting,slow going and also effect combat performance.

The main issue that I think We would like to see addressed is-STRAGGLING
.
The squads are becoming to spread out-half the squad is rushing to the objective while the other half is lagging far behind along the route of march.I don't think this is modeled properly.

I would expect this kind of behaviour from a unit that is broken,retreating or routed after combat,but not before they make contact with the enemy.

If some members can't keep up then I would expect the whole squad to stop and wait for them before continuing the advance or just have the whole squad move as fast as the slowest member.

With the new patch I find that I'm micro manging fatigue and straggling more often than anything else in the game and it has become quite frustrating.

[andrey12345]

I saw that, but what do you specifically suggest?
If we do so tirelessly waiting tired - will be a wave of indignation.
If they do not stop being tired, it is not clear why fatigue is needed.

[Flashburn]

I think that point is valid.......  Not the fatigue, but how it effects the squad and units.  It has changed the way I handle things in game.  That is keep the movement down to the min.  Probably more than it should be in fact.  Overall I think it adds alot of depth to the game.  But needs to handle staying in some sort of formation for movement.  Although the modifiers do help.  Set slowest speed and its way better than flat out run.  As it should be.  

A modifier that moves unit at fastest speed possible while staying in formation.  Of course, yet another modifer...

A way to for soldiers to swap heavy loads to less tired ones.  YA........no clue how that could be done right.

[Dane49]

I saw that, but what do you specifically suggest?

I suggest that the squads move no faster than the slowest member,and the squad members never be more than 50 meters from the squad leader.

If the squad leader is killed or the squad is broken and retreating then I have no problem with the unit scattering and losing cohesion.

But up until that point I don't think the squad members or the squad leader would allow themselves to become that scattered.

[andrey12345]

I suggest that the squads move no faster than the slowest member,and the squad members never be more than 50 meters from the squad leader.

As I say early - it is bad solution.
It turns out that if the squad has at least someone with a heavy weapon, all squad has been slow.

[Dane49]

Why would the squad run off and leave their heavy weapon?

What would be the point in taking it along then if it can't keep up with the squad members it was designed to support,and a LMG without the tripod isn't considered a heavy weapon and certainly wouldn't cause the soldier carrying it to fall so far behind that He is useless to the squad.

The German Army built their whole squad around the LMGs and the soldiers assigned to carrying them were expected to keep up or the weapon would be assigned to someone who could carry it and could keep up.

Edit:I carried the M-60 machine gun in my squad for 4 months when I was in the infantry.The M-60 was designed like the German MG-42 without the tripod and weighed about the same.

During that whole time I don't recall ever not being able to keep pace with my squad and I'm sure If I was having a difficult time keeping up with my squad mates they certainly wouldn't have abandoned me and left me behind.

And as I recall,it wasn't the weapon that was too heavy but the ammunition that accounted for the majority of the weight that had to be hauled by the squad.So I would think that if some guys are out running the rest of the squad then the squad leader would lighten the load of the more tired members by assigning more of the ammo weight to them to help keep the squad from fragmenting  and dispersing.

I don't know what kind of command and control doctrine was used in the Russian Army,but cohesion is an integral part of command and control in Western Armies.

I have 2 seperate games on my PC with both the new and old patch
.
As it stands now with the new patch,either the squads start becoming more cohesive and have less straggling or otherwise I think I'll stick with the older patch to play the game.

[Aces]

Hi,

Sorry to have to ask again but does anyone know how target designation by flares feature works please?

Kind Regards

Aces

[BigDuke66]

If STRAGGLING is really a so big problem about about an option to set either allowing/not allowing stragglers so that the units stays together or or stretch while moving
Another option could be to let "Heavy weapons keep position" meaning that the soldiers follow the orders but the heavier weapons like MGs stay in place to provide cover.

[Flashburn]

Why would the squad run off and leave their heavy weapon?

What would be the point in taking it along then if it can't keep up with the squad members it was designed to support,and a LMG without the tripod isn't considered a heavy weapon and certainly wouldn't cause the soldier carrying it to fall so far behind that He is useless to the squad.

The German Army built their whole squad around the LMGs and the soldiers assigned to carrying them were expected to keep up or the weapon would be assigned to someone who could carry it and could keep up.

Edit:I carried the M-60 machine gun in my squad for 4 months when I was in the infantry.The M-60 was designed like the German MG-42 without the tripod and weighed about the same.

During that whole time I don't recall ever not being able to keep pace with my squad and I'm sure If I was having a difficult time keeping up with my squad mates they certainly wouldn't have abandoned me and left me behind.

And as I recall,it wasn't the weapon that was too heavy but the ammunition that accounted for the majority of the weight that had to be hauled by the squad.So I would think that if some guys are out running the rest of the squad then the squad leader would lighten the load of the more tired members by assigning more of the ammo weight to them to help keep the squad from fragmenting  and dispersing.

I don't know what kind of command and control doctrine was used in the Russian Army,but cohesion is an integral part of command and control in Western Armies.

I have 2 seperate games on my PC with both the new and old patch
.
As it stands now with the new patch,either the squads start becoming more cohesive and have less straggling or otherwise I think I'll stick with the older patch to play the game.

Your M60 Mg deal hit it right on the head.....  The weapon intself is annoying but not going to really slow you down much if at all.  Hauled an evil m240B MG a few times on long road martches and the like.  Apart from my ass wanting to fall off after I had no issues keeping up.  But the AMMO!  OMG.  That has to be spread out amoung the whole squad.  Ditto I would think with light mortars.  Its the damned ammo that screws everything up.  And keeping everyone in 50 meters is too close.  If a large squad could most certainly get spread out to 200 meters and still be where they are suppose to be.  But robot formations looks funny.  So we do not want that right?  Now we have the other end where they can get spread out all over.  But if just road marching they SHOULD keep formation.  If running 4 km across a map.........well that is not vary smart is it?

I still think a traveling VS combat manuver modifer would be a solution.  In traveling the squad stays more or less in formation while in combat they move as fast they can with a little more stick together than now.  Of course the current modifiers do this more or less now......  Tell them column formation and have them walk.  But still can get all spread out all over the dang place if long enough.  Short of simulating infantry squads carrying ammo for support weapons and somehow getting to weapons without being stupid how can this be handled?  I suppose you could have a set ammo drop point for infantry carrying extra ammo?  At which point the heavy weapon guys could pick it up and move all slow like now.  As a 4 or 5 man MG team could handle carrying heavy weapon and tripod (or whatever) plus basic load of ammo over shorter distances.  Just not fast.  With weapon broken down to base parts and carrying just a little ammo they should be able to keep up.  After all they are only dealing with there personal weapons and an extra 10-20 KG.  While the infantry are carring their personal weapons and extra gear like grenades, more ammo for their personal weapons, radios (if they have them), flare guns, entrenching tools, and of course ammo for their support weapons.  But this can be MORE mirco managing.  On the other hand, it is legit as this is one way this sort of thing is done.  How many photos of infantry carring belts of ammo for squads MG's have we seen after all?

[BigDuke66]

Would it be a problem to test the beta patch with the DLCs? I just wonder with so many changes the DLCs maybe need to be updated too, the version I have are still from May 2012 at least I think so as may12 is in their names.
Version number for the new patch is 4.02?

[Flashburn]

Would it be a problem to test the beta patch with the DLCs? I just wonder with so many changes the DLCs maybe need to be updated too, the version I have are still from May 2012 at least I think so as may12 is in their names.
Version number for the new patch is 4.02?

They work, but do not have the new units like commo guys.  The updated DLC's are in beta testing. 

[Dane49]

The point I was trying to make is the LMGs are not heavy weapons.If they were heavy weapons they would be attached to the heavy weapons platoon.

The amount of ammo the squads are carrying is what should determine the fatigue rate not the weapon.And that ammo would be pretty much evenly distributed throughout the squad,with the stronger men picking up the slack of the weaker members.

The German squads are carrying MG-34s in this game some squads were carrying the MG-42 without the tripod and other attachments so that it could be used as a LMG instead of a HMG by 1943.

The drawback for this was that those squads were basically just ammo bearers for the MG-42 since it went thru ammo very quickly with its higher rate of fire.


Having my squads road bound to limit fatigue and dispersal is stupid and obviouos from an attackers point of view once you cross the MLR,and most the roads were no better to walk on then the surrounding terrain.This isn't Western Europe here with paved and cleared roads, it's rural Russia.

Regardless,it's not fatigue that bothers me it's dispersal.Having my squad dispersed over 100s of meters during a movement to contact because of straggling is unacceptable and unrealistic.I'm not going to keep arguing this point but will stick to playing the older version if this can't be addressed and modeled in a more realistic manner.