Graviteam

Hi folks,

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5060/aces251mortarcarrierwip.jpg)
By aces123 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/aces123) at 2012-07-08

Cheers

Aces

Very interesting. D' you think you'll be able to get the mortar crew to fit in there?

Hey that's cool! Indeed with a crew inside that'd make a nice mobile artillery vehicle. :)Good work!

Hi chaps,

Regarding the crew, the 251/2 had a crew of 8 including the driver and co-driver/radio operatore leaving six to be accommodated in the hull. I think I'll try and have at least two "loaders" standing astride the mortar and the rest as passengers seated to the rear. You'll note that I've cut the seats back like the real thing so there should be room to have four seated although I need to experiment with the crew positioning and the placement of objects like the mortar rounds and carrying cases to get a best fit. Then I need to make the mortar operational. I think that it'll make for an interesting addition to the German armoury when finished.

I'll keep you posted on my progress. One thing that I could do with a little assistance on is the creation of new units in the mission editor. I first came across this problem when I was trying to add new units for my previous infantry and kubelwagon radio car mods. I identified two emgcfg files that seemed to have a bearing on this and edited them but the new units didn't show up in the mission editor!?. I spoke to Donken recently who has been very helpful and he indicated that there were more files to edit so maybe someone could give me a list of files that need to be edited to include a new unit in the mission editor and any releated tips/info. I'd like to accomplish this ASAP because, unless there's an easy way for mission creators to readily use them in-game they'll never see the light of day.

Cheers

Aces

Well, if you want to try yourself first you can for example download my "standalone zip" Jagdtiger and look throu all files there, but take an extra look in the readme and .text file and see how its made. But i think you probably only have missed the .text file, thats where you put in the name for the unit in the editor and also the igm name.
Or you can just call me when you got time!

Thanks mate that's great, I'll have a look at the files with the jagdtiger mod.

Thanks again for the help and the chat the other evening, let's hook up maybe next weekend if you are around.

Cheers

Leigh

Edit: I'm quite excited, I found some really good references for the 251/2 as they seem quite rare. I'm going to re-instate the full-length rear seats, remove the mortar baseplate and put in on one of the rear doors. Add a total of 22 (3-round) ammo containers on the rear seats in racks and also two each behind the two front seats with a couple open on the front seats. I might also remove the rear AA-mg ammo drum and replace with an ammo belt if I can spare the polys. This will probably entail cutting back on the crew numbers so maybe a total of 4 or 5 crew, driver, radio op, two loaders and an NCO commander.

Keep it up Aces it looks like you've got a winning combo! 8)

:D

Thanks mate,

Cheers

Aces

Yeah very nice work Aces, as always. I like very much the quality "surgical" of your work :)

very nice work ! everybody here like is waiting for !

THANKS !

Morning guys,

Thanks for your comments. I'm making good progress, below the latest WIP pics from yesterday evening:

(http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9200/2512wipl3.jpg)

(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7098/2512wipl1.jpg)

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5851/2512wipl2.jpg)

Details might change slightly but, apart from that, I think I should be ready by the end of the week to start working with the required game config files etc. and maybe in-game testing this coming weekend if all progresses well.

Cheers

Aces

PS. If amyone has access to a copy of "Panzer Tracts No. 15-3 and could have a look at any info/pics contained in this book regarding the SdKfz 251/2 Ausf C with 81cm mortar and pass it on to me I'd be obliged. Detailed pictures and info on this variant is quite scarse and there's little in all my books on the 251.

Wow! this looks awesome! When you're done with this, can you possibly take a look at the in-game Stug? It's missing a few principle parts, namely the Schurtzen that was present from 1943 onward and the correct external machinegun

Humm, the late-war StuG did have the Hetzer style remote controlled machinegun, if that's what you're referring to, but those were only installed after the summer of '44, so a loader-operated shield MG would be more appropriate for earlier scenarios.

Hi chaps,

Latest WIP screenshot:

(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5756/sdkfz2512latestwip.jpg) (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/sdkfz2512latestwip.jpg/)

I found some excellent pictures and re-made the ammunition canister rack in a tubular design as well as making a proper floor mount for the mortar. I have also nearly finished adding the wooden texture to the handles on the metal ammunition cases.

Cheers

Aces

Hi chaps,

Latest WIP picture below, I'm just starting testing in game, it loads fine but need to test and tweek a few things before I'm finished.

Cheers

Aces

(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9080/aces2512latestwip.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/aces2512latestwip.jpg/)

Aces did you test whether the crew in the vehicle actually uses the mortar and lob shells????

Cheers.

Hi mate,

I've added the mortar crew but that's on my "to do" list. I have used the mortar loader and pak gunner animations as used for the non-vehicle-mounted mortar crew but will see if they actually go through the motions so as to speak.

Cheers

Aces

Hi chaps,

Just to let you know that this project isn't dead. I've done a lot more work throughout. I've resisited posting in-game screen shots because I have a couple of problems that have hampered my progress, as follows.

1. The tracks are out of alignments with the wheels but not rotated just out of alignment. I've cheked the wheels and track parameters in the sdkfz251.encfg file and they are exactly the same as the other 251 models. I've also checked the left and right track settings in the common_res.engcfg and they are correct, they must be else the other 251 models that share them would surely also be wrong. I've checked the model and everything seems aligned and postioned the same as my 251/1 model, also, the wheel pivots are centred and aligned correctly and the wheels rotate in the correct direction. To explain it, is as if the tracks are lower down (u/d) and slightly back (l/r) of their correct alignment.

2. At present the vehicle doesn't fire. I've checked the "weapons" , "shells" and "heads" sections of the 251.encfg and it seems like I've gotten this correct but maybe I've missed something!?.

3. Apart from that everything else is pretty much finished, the model, the skin, the units in the editor etc.

Any thoughts much appreciated, I've been bashing my head against a wall over these two issues every night for the last couple of weeks and getting nowhere.

Cheers and regards

Aces

Oh what the hell, here's some in-game screen shots FWIW, crew positioning not finalised, you'll see what I mean about the track alignment:

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8731/2512wip8.jpg) (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/2512wip8.jpg/)

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2254/2512wip7.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/2512wip7.jpg/)

(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2233/2512wip61.jpg) (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/2512wip61.jpg/)

(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3540/2512wip5.jpg) (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/2512wip5.jpg/)

(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3752/2512wip4.jpg) (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/2512wip4.jpg/)

(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8606/2512wip3.jpg) (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/2512wip3.jpg/)

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5249/2512wip2.jpg) (http://img407.imageshack.us/i/2512wip2.jpg/)

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8021/2512wip1.jpg) (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/2512wip1.jpg/)

I'm loathe to abandon the project as I've put an awful lot of hard work and research into it but, if I cannot resolve these issue fairly soon, I'll be forced to put it on the shelf. I guess the vehicle would maybe have generated more interest if it was playable.

About the tracks. You'll probably need to set them up as separate lines under a different label, in the common.res.engcfg. 
Then link the 'caterpillars' section in the tech config file to the new labelled tracks.

For all other issues, try posting the tech config file up here, for the good people to see,

Thanks mate,

I did, at one time, have them as two new lines for the left track and right track in the common res file and it didn't make any difference. As the 251/1 and 251/10 both use the same lines in the common res file for tracks I think that the 251/2 can also use them but, as I mentioned, adding two new lines and also changing the 251/2's encgfg to use them didn't make any difference at all. I'll post more this evening. I'm actually a bit more concerned as to why it won't fire, if it doesn't fire then it is useless.

Regards

Aces

Wow, that's awesome!

Hi mate,

But flawed if it doesn't work :)

Cheers

Aces

That wopuld be unforttunate because your vehicle is really looking swell!!Re the vehicle not firing you may have to add something in the anims folder for thrcrew to load and fire the mortar.

Thanks mate,

I have added anims and the crew go througth the paces but no firing, no sound, no smoke and no explosion ??!!.

Oh, BTW. where the rate of fire, rounds per minute setting set?.

Cheers

Aces

It's in the common res file:

GRW36,0,%WEAP_MORTAR%,56,50,0.2,0.25,0.1,0.1,1,0,1,1,1,0,shot_lmort,reload1,,drop1,1,txt_gun_grw36,gun_shot_pat,,GRW36;
GRW34,%FL_ART_FIRE%,%WEAP_MORTAR%,56,81,0.2,0.25,0.1,0.1,1,0,2,1,1,0,shot_mmort,reload1,,drop1,1,txt_gun_grw34,gun_shot_pat,,GRW34;

You may have to add a couple of lines in the weapons and shells paragraph of the tech_cfg file for the sdkfz251.Otherwise your changes won't be reflected .MY vguess is that you may to have to amend by adding the following entries:

something like that:

//îðóæèå
   weapons()
   {
      //íàçâàíèå, ÷àíê âûëåòà, ÷àíê îòêàòà, áàøíÿ èç êîòîðîé ñòðåëÿþò, ðàáî÷åå ìåñòî çàðÿæàþùåãî
      GRW34, s_gun, db_gun, head1, wp_loader;
   }

   //áîåêîìïëåêò
   shells()
   {
      //èìÿ ñíàðÿäà, êîëè÷åñòâî
                            MHE_82, 30;                           
   }

Hi mate,

Thanks for the info. Which bit of the line in the common res for the grw34 line relates to the reload time?. I have an explanation of the meaning of each line and didn't see any reference to reload time?.

I already have the weapons and shells lines in the vehicle's tech engcfg file and also the head enteries, much as you have them in your example. The "shells" section is for the shell name in the common res and 66 rounds whilst the weapons entry is as per your example.
I've checked the linking and it is the same as the static mortar model.

BTW, The wheel problem is bizare!, I know what's happening with the wheels/tracks problem but not why. Basically the wheels aren't centred to the axels (all part of the db_hull object) in-game although they are definitely centred both in 3D editor program and the objects editor. So it cannot be a model problem can it?.

If this isn't the case then it must be a config issue but, looking at the relevant entries in the vehicle's engcfg file, they are exactly the same parameters as for the other 251 variants!. I did center the pivots and align them to the world and the wheels rotate correctly and the vehicle moves in the correct direction just fine. As I've based the 251/2 on my earlier 251/1 work then I cannot see why the wheels positioning in-game has changed. So rather than (o) with "( )" representing the wheel and "o" the axel it actually looks something like (although a bit exagerated) the the example below.

   o
( )
   
Regards

Aces

Edit: Actually I just had a thought as to why the wheels might be out of alignment with the axels that I can check this evening. Maybe it is to do with pivots positioning, local co-ordinates Vs world co-ordinates in Max?. Although how these might have got changed I don't know.

I also found a nice real mortar firing sound that I'm going to use, I wanted the typical "tonk" or "farting" noise that mortars make rather than that the sound of a gun firing. I'll probably not use the existing loading sound as it is really for a tank shell etc. and not really appropriate. I might also change the shell explosion sound to that of a mortar shell. That's if I get the darned thing to fire :)

Also noted some strange AI behaviour in my test mission. If I use a non-vehicle-mounted mortar they will fire at an enemy tank for example quite happily until they are wiped out by return fire. With the new vehicle, maybe because it is an open-top APC, their first instinct is to "run away" or reverse like crazy and then go through the motions of loading a round. Is this because the OT-APC designation makes them behave this way? or is it something else?. I tried changing it to SPG or mort but neither really made any difference.

Aces the reload time is the 9th number in the line starting from the left.I have put the values in bold for you to see.

GRW36,0,%WEAP_MORTAR%,56,50,0.2,0.25,0.1,0.1,1,0,1,1,1,0,shot_lmort,reload1,,drop1,1,txt_gun_grw36,gun_shot_pat,,GRW36;
GRW34,%FL_ART_FIRE%,%WEAP_MORTAR%,56,81,0.2,0.25,0.1,0.1,1,0,2,1,1,0,shot_mmort,reload1,,drop1,1,txt_gun_grw34,gun_shot_pat,,GRW34;

Re the APCs behaviour it's probably the coding ....

Thanks mate,

Does that mean it takes 2 second to reload the GRW34? in which case it has a 30 rounds per minute rate of fire in which case the 15-25 rounds per minute figure I have researched would translate as a 4 second reload time for 15 RPM or maybe I'll split the difference and go for 3 seconds and 20 RPM.

Regarding the APC AI I would have thought that that could be changeable by making the vehicle behave like another unit type in which case I've only found two setting where this might be applicable in the vehicle's engcfg eg. "OT APC", "OT MORT", "OT SPG" etc. and in the common res file.

The 251/10 doesn't behave the same way and that's also clasified as "OT APC". it will slog it out with any enemy, I rewuire the mortar to behave the same way more or less. If a mortar crew exposed and out in the open doesn't run away then neither should there bretheren mounted in a 251 with some armoured protection.

Thanks and regards

Aces

I'll have to check but it may have to do with the fact that in the Mission Editor you can use the GRW34 for artillery strikes in mission making whereas the GRW36 is not available.

Ah, that might well explain it, it would make perfect sense thanks,

There must be some classification somewhere as to  how certain "types" of units behave AI-wise. I thought that the "OT APC" or whatever setting might be it but it would appear not to be else the 251/10 would behave the same way. Does a weapon have a minimum range as well as a maximum? I found the maximum range parameter for the grw34 just fine but wondered if there might be a minimum range parameter, there should be one as the mortar (or gun) has a minimum elevation and thus a minimum range. Maybe it won't open fire because the enemy are too close and it is reversing to open up the range, just a thought. The GRW34 had a minimum range of 60m in real life.

I just noticed why I didn't spot the relod time as this is what I've been using on the sukhoi forum:

-> Common_res.engcfg

weapons () - Weapons
1 Title
2 Flags
Type 3
4 Length of the barrel, cal
5 Caliber, mm
6 Coefficient. impact
Rollback 7, m
8 Time rollback
9 Time overrun with
10 Number of charges in the cassette
11 Recharge time a projectile with
12 Time change of the cassette with the
13 Dependence on the experience of charging
14 Number of smoke when fired
15 The quantity of dust lifted
Sound 16 shot
Sound loader 17
19 Audio cassette change
20 Sound drop-down sleeves
21 Number of shots in the queue for the AI
22 Textual name
23 shot pattern
The geometry of the arms 24 (only worn)
25 Marker gun

----

11. Recharge time a projectile with :)

32. Effective range, m  is clear enough but that's the maximum range.

I guess that "12 Time change of the cassette with the" is the time taken to change amunition types? and that "13 Dependence on the experience of charging" is the effect of crew experience on the reload time?.

I only have one suitable mission to test with and maybe as it was written with a 251/1 in mind maybe the scripting is wrong it uses a "dummy" script, maybe this should be an artillery fire script I don't know anything about such things. What I'd like is a mission with a few "soft" enemy targets  that don't fire back or maybe a village or other geographical feature as a target and a german artillery piece within 2 km or so range, that I could swap in the mission editor for the 251/2 with a suitable script to artillery fire on the enemy target that would help. ;) :)

God I hate scripting!, texturing great, modelling very intersting but scripting is, IMHO, bad enough at the best of times even harder when it is in another language!.


--

This is Russenglish at its best ;D. Yes your guesses are correct.You really have to read between the lines as the translations are really more a matter of interpretation ???

A test mission as you describe I could do easily.I could put a Lefh18 on the map and just make an artiellry strike script on designated soft targets( trucks or artillery/AT positions). I'll work on it....

Thanks mate, that would be great, it'd really help me to test the thing out.

I guess that this would be an excellent potential use for the 251/2. Sculking in some ravine or other cover and laying down some artillery support and then maybe moving to a new location as required. Should make for some potentially interesting mission possibilities.


Cheers and thanks again for all your assistance.

Aces

Hi chaps,

Sadly, no further progress to report. I spent yet another frustrating evening trying to solve the wheels/tracks problem and also the darned thing still doesn't fire. I'm hoping that I can resolve these issues over the coming weekend but I'm getting quite frustrated and tired so, if not, I'll set it aside for the time being and come back to it when I have further ideas. Maybe Frinik's mission will help iron the firing problem out but the wheels issue is simply beyond me. Everything in MAX looks good, everything in the editor looks good and the vehicle's tech.engcfg and the common res file looks good, I've been through them all time and again,  but still the wheels don't align correctly to the axels. I re-checked  and re-did all the pivots etc. and they were fine so clean out of ideas. Even if I get the thing to fire, I cannot release it with the wheels problem.

I wish I could find a game that would take my mind of things, I fired up Iron Front last night but got fed up after about ten minutes and returned to the problems in hand. I simply cannot get interested in gaming any more.

Cheers and regards

Aces

Started working on a test mission but it`s turning out to be more complicated than I anticipated.Mostly because artillery and AT guns are not playable. You can`t write an artillery strike assigned to a particular artillery gun because of that. I am trying to modify the script but I think I`ll have to limit the targets to one zone mostly because the AI artillery crews cannot target several positions in succession.Still, I am not giving up simpoly limiting my ambition to something you can actually use to test your mobile mortar.

Brilliant thanks mate, sorry it is bieng a bit problematical.

Cheers

Aces

It's not really problematic it's due to the fact that unfortunately the guns(AT/Artillery/AA) are not playable thus it complicates a bit making test missions .Not to owrry I'll find a solution!

Cheers!

 Ok I have done a test misison which I tested.Basically I placed a German 105 mm gun on aslope on the Izum map and 4 »Sov trucks with infantry on the opposite slope 500 metres away.Since neither are playable to observe the action I have put the player in a SKFZ 232 just behind the 105 gun.Thus you can safely observe the action and if need be intervene( I had to MG some of the infantry that was sniping at the gun crew killing some.The survivors lobbed 16 shells and destroyed 2 trucks and 25 infantry.

All you need to do is go into the ME open the mission called with high originality: Acestest2( the first one flopped).You can then swap the 105 mm for your SKFZ251/2 and observe the experiment.It`s very basic but should serve your needs...It`s in datapack format so all you need to do is simply unpack it using the editor _mission of your ME  once I email it to you.

That's great mate, thank you veyr much. I'll report back as soon as I've tried it out. This will be so useful to help test thing out.

Cheers

Leigh (Aces)

Aces you 'll have to PM me your email address!

Thanks mate, pm sent.

Cheers

Aces

Hi Folks,

A quick update, I have several problems at the moment, in no particular order as they say in the X-Factor :).

1. The wheels/hull/tracks problem I outlined in an earlier post, wheels and hull perfectly aligned in MAX, also perfectly fine in the Mission Editor but not in game.

2. The vehicle still doesn't fire and no smoke from the mortar, I've checked the s_gun "fragment" and it is there in the right place both in the config file and in 3d space.

3. The mortar itself. A mortar's traverse and elevation mechanism is significantly different from a gun. If you look at the normal non-vehicle-mounted mortar (in-game) then the mortar tube doesn't actually move at all but it does fire and "simulate" elevation and rotation without actually moving any parts. That's fine with me for the 251/2 as I don't actually want the mortar tube to elevate and roatate given the very confined space in the hull but duplicating this doesn't work. I might re-model the mortar and try and get a proper elevation and rotation mechanism but it is more work and probably still wouldn't look good.

4. The vehicle is moving when stationary or rather it judders very slightly and slowly and "creeps" round rotation-wise. I've checked and the db_hull object isn't linked to anything that rotates. All I can think of is that it is behaving a bit like an SPG and trying to align itself to targets outside of its firing arc (not that it fires on anything within its fire arc :)).

Basically I've  spent literally hundreds of hours to-date on the whole project and many hours trying to address the above issues. I was pretty close to "throwing in the towel" yesterday evening after another fruitless evening. Here's a brief summary of the work completed.

1. Model been finished for a couple of weeks.
2. Skin as above.
3. Mission Editor inclussions finished and test mission kindly supplied by frinik.
4. New mortar sounds finished but as yet un-tested.
5. Crew animations more or less finished but will need a bit of work.

I'll give it till the end of the coming weekend to see if I can resolve any or all of these problems after which time I'll zip it all up and upload it somewhere for anyone interested in finishing it off. Any suggestions for any of my problems much appreciated.

Kind regards

Aces 

I could take a look for you, hop on skype when you got time :D I think i have a few ideas about your problems!

Thanks mate, I'll see if I can get on Skype this evening.

Cheers

Leigh

ACES,
I don't think to be the only one to dream about your Sdkfz 251/2 mortar !...
THANKS for all you make for our pleasure !
Have a nice day !

Good day my friend,

Thanks for the encouragement. I had a long and very fruitful chat with Donken on Skype yesterday evening and it has given me new hope that we'll get the 251/2 into the game.

I'll keep you posted here.

Cheers and thanks.

Aces

hello !
what a good new for begining this sunny week- end ! 8)

Hopefully, yes, I think that the new plan is to make it playable as well. :)

Enjoy the sunny weekend mate.

Cheers

Aces

Hi,

Just to share something I discovered during my brief tinkering with the revised Panzer III and cockpit.

The projectiles or bullets originate from the 's_gun' dummy or its equivalent. (The dummy located at the muzzle). It's important for the z-axis of the dummy - the blue-colored axis - to be pointing out, in the direction you want your shells to go.

 

Thanks mate,

That's a good tip, I think that this is how I've got it but I need to check. I noticed something yesterday evening when I was working on the multiskin/multimodel mod. One of the vehicles was mssing from my platoon of four vehicles. It turned out that, in the common.units file I had mis-typed one entry in the crew section and by accident used a capital letter and not a lower case letter and that caused the whole vehicle not to be displayed as the crew entries (one starting with a captial and the other lower case) didn't match up. One "lives as one learns" :). It could have taken ages to find but I was lucky to spot it fairly quickly.

Cheers

Aces

Yeah thecode can be unforgiving! Happened to me once too with a sound entry. I had changed a sound file and forgot to make the changes in the common res weapon entries and as a result my tank was mute ..... ;D

Yes, it does some odd things, you'd have thought that if it couldn't find the crew it would still have displayed the vehicle without them but oh no! :)

Actually the multimodel/multiskin idea has opened up some interesting new possibilities, not only can each vehicle in a "platoon" look different in terms of stowage, markings and skin it offer the possibility of each crew and, in terms of the 251/1 "passengers" the panzergrenadier squad, being different. So I now have a platoon containing three 251/1s each different in appearance and the crew in each are slightly differently dressed/equipped and the passengers in each are diffently positioned eg. the riflemen, NCO and machine gunner are not sitting in the same places in each vehicle. So the net result is that each vehicle/crew/passengers load looks different from one another. :D

Cheers

Aces

Good evening!

I wonder how's the going with the Sk 251/2? Well, I hope.

Hi mate,

I spoke to Donken recently, I think he is going to have a bit more time to iron out the wrinkles in the mod when he has completed his other projects. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

Aces

Looks good Aces don't let go! ;)

Thanks mate,

We'll get there and we also hope to release it as a playable vehicle.

Cheers

Aces