Graviteam

Where can I find a description of the two sets of range numbers on the Panther gun sights as shown in "Destroy HQ mission.
Also information on calculating range using the small triangles and the large triangle in the gunsight.

Could u enclose some explanation pictures? I just got that smth. wrong with mission "Destroy HQ" or Panther?

There's nothing wrong.  I just am not sure how to use the sights correctly.

Check out this link ;)
http://pedg.yuku.com/topic/1728/t/Ranging-Turmzielfernrohr-TZF-9b-gun-sight-optics.html

Very cool.  That explains it well.  The gunsight in the Panther in Destroy the HQ does not act quite like the one in that web site.  The large triangle stays locked in the center while the line of small triangles move vertically, up and down the sight when adjusting the range.  I believe that all the triangles should stay in line, as shown in post #3 on that link.

The Panther gunsight is the tzf12_new.The tzf9b is the TigerI`s. However they work very similarly just the magnification varies.

Yes, Frinik is right, the gunsight of the Panther is the tzf12 but still I also agree with Tanker:

The large triangle stays locked in the center of the gunsight while the line of small triangles moves vertically, up and down the sight when adjusting the range.  I believe that all the triangles should stay in line, as shown in post #3 on that link, ALSO in the case of the tzf12 gunsight of the Panther (and also in the rest of the german tanks).

Lockie, could you please consider fixing this?


Txema

I don't have any idea how gunsight of the Panther should work correctly  8)

This is for completeness on the movement of the tzf optic and the strich.

There are currently only two games/mods that simulate the German optics correctly. They are all a direct result of the hard work and dedication of Brit44aldo of Panzer Elite. He spent six months gathering all the information for the tzf optics and how they worked.

Here is the forum posting that finally sorted out how the German tzf optic was ranged.

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=531530

Here is Brit44Aldos excellent detective work in action:

http://home.comcast.net/~ab707/pex/images/tzf5b/tzf5b.html

And here is I44's understanding of it, please note i44's video starts off with the wrong magnification (arma2 quirk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kpy8RPkPjg&list=UUUUkaPl8S6seeXcustqyfFA&index=7

I really would love to see this feature added to Steel Fury.

Lockie,

I think that the "operation" of the Panther gunsight should be identical to that of the Tiger gunsight:

The problem is that now, in Steel Fury, the large triangle of the Panther gunsight does not move when the line of triangles move up or down to change the range. It should work like in this animation:

(http://images.yuku.com/image/gif/33d16e137775e895c1d62684d27b7fb11565e813.gif)

As you can see ALL the triangles (including the large one) move down when increasing the range...

Can you understand me now, Lockie?

It would be great if you could fix the Panther gunsight to make it work in this way...


Txema

Oh, I got it :) My browser Opera doesn't show this picture, I had to look through explorer to see how it does.

Wow the immersion factor in i44 is impressive! But then the Arma engine has always been good for that!

Murkz,

Thank you very much for your post.

You are right: Brit44aldo has done (and continues doing !!) an impressive work with Panzer Elite. A true labor of love !

Kudos to Aldo !!


Txema

What game are they referring to in that post by Brit44Aldo?

Yes the Panther gunsight is not right in SF_K42.  I also noticed that the Pz IV gunsights have no range scales to set the range by.  They just have the line of triangles.  There is no way to know what range the gun is firing at.

The post where I credit Brit44Aldo and the two games that use the newly researched optic info.

They are Invasion 44 (I44) an Armed Assault 2 (ARMA2) mod and the grand daddy of tank simulations Panzer Elite (PE) is the other.

I44 needs Arma2 to play.

PE requires PE-X for the new optics.

http://pedg.yuku.com/forums/10/PEX-Developments (http://pedg.yuku.com/forums/10/PEX-Developments)

I hope this helps :)

Thanks to our ukrainian comrade 19will73, now we've almost identical gunsight for the panther and tiger.
Here's original and in game. Amazing work!
(http://s5.postimage.org/o06z34z2r/panther_sight.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o06z34z2r/)
(http://s5.postimage.org/fkhelmw7n/0002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fkhelmw7n/)   (http://s5.postimage.org/qvk2a032r/0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qvk2a032r/)   
As u can see a row of triangles moves up and down together!

Those are very nice lockie, can you make them rotate as they historically did ?

As per this post:

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=10999.msg28958#msg28958

As you can see in reality there was no second triangle for the PZGR 40 etc.. to range off (lower left), just the top one :)

It's rotating.

If I remove a lower left, then I don't understand how to aim with Pzgr39/42 and Pzgr40/42? Can u explain?

BTW
If we'll keep a reality with enthusiasm, then I should remove all gunsights for the ger spg, coz they are fake. I think we should keep a compromise.

You rotate the PZGR scale around to the top, there is no triangle at the bottom left in the real optic, it is there to fudge it for Steel Fury.


http://home.comcast.net/~ab707/pex/images/tzf5b/tzf5b.html

as you can see the strich (triangles) moves down as the optic rotates and then back up as it continues on around in the same direction.


Why, having used the correct sights in Panzer Elite and I44, I can say they are very easy to use and very accurate, they just make sense to use :) and do not compromise game play in any way.

As for the other tanks, that is a nice project for the future and after all Steel Fury is a simulation, not some WOT clone :)

(http://s5.postimage.org/o06z34z2r/panther_sight.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o06z34z2r/)
At this moment it works perfect, but if I remove a lower tri, then I can't aim with Pzgr.
As for er example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiT9ChLBF1o
Which tanks in the game this gunsight should be asigned?

OK, then can u make the same for SF without compromise?

You aim off the top triangle in reality... the optic can rotate 360 degrees, or more in either direction, see this one.

http://home.comcast.net/~ab707/pex/images/tzf5b/tzf5b.html

Mentioned by u sample doesn't look the same as this:
(http://s5.postimage.org/o06z34z2r/panther_sight.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o06z34z2r/)
As u can see there are two additional scales for the Pzgr. In er case there's only one.

The scales are all ranged off the top triangle there is no other triangle to range off  :)


I am only pointing out a flaw with the optics in Steel Fury and every other ww2 tank simulation apart for the PE mod and the I44 mod.

You now have the information and it is up to you guys what you do with it :)


Maybe it is not possible in Steel Fury and that is fine too.

Murkz, the sounds in I44 are impressive whether Mgs, engines, reloading etc.Where did you guys get them???

The messages, I can't recall who made those.

The rest of the sounds were done by maco, nsu, snorri and sirdiealot, maybe some others but those guys I am certain of :)

U still didn't give me a hint - how are u going to aim, if there won't be a second triangle? :)
Each time u show me completely other gunsight ;D Anyway, if u know how to make it better, then be my guest ;)

Yes, SF is not perfect :( Do u've a video abt procedure of aiming for the stug/ferdinand/marder/hetzer/jagdpanther/jagdtiger in PE mod and the I44 mod? Would be interested to see how did u manage to simulate a separate aiming.

I've already did :)

For spg it's possible to simulate aiming, but in a very inconvenient and ridiculous manner. At this moment a 'half-real' gunsight is preferable.

lockie: take a look at the link with the animated/flash/gif sight and you should understand how the real sight work. That is what murkz are asking about, if its possible to do in SF.
The real sights didnt need the "second triangle" because the strich platte or whatever its called is moving up automaticly when you want to aim with the different shells, as you can see in that link.

U still didn't give me a hint - how are u going to aim, if there won't be a second triangle? :)
Each time u show me completely other gunsight ;D Anyway, if u know how to make it better, then be my guest ;)



Nice answer lockie  ??? and to be honest if I could, I would of done the optics.

ALL THE DIFFERENT SHELLS USED THE SAME TOP TRIANGLE!!!

I may help u with tutor. It's a question of time.

There are gunsights Tzf 12 and Tzf 12a, where I can see three types of shells and each of them use the corresponding range. My link is: http://s612.beta.photobucket.com/user/MooMan53/media/PantherGSTZF-12.jpg.html

Donken, u know everything abt gunsight adjusting. I shared my knowledge with u. If u understand, what should be done, then plz do. I did my best with comrade 19will73 and now I'm completely confused what do u want. There was a request to move all triangles up and down together. We did it. Sorry, but I can't fix the things, which I don't understand.

Hi Lockie !

I think I know what Murkz is referring to.

Can you see this animation in your computer?

http://home.comcast.net/~ab707/pex/images/tzf5b/tzf5b.html

It corresponds to the gunsight of the Panzer IV D

As you can see there are two scales:

- one for the MG (Machine Gun) or PzGr (Armor Piercing shells)
- another one for the SprGr (High Explosive shells)

The point is that to aim with both scales there is only one solid black triangle.

At the beginning of the animation the black solid triangle is used to aim with the first scale (MG or PzGr), but if you continue rotating the scale then the black sollid triangle is used to aim with the second scale (SprGr), and consequently the line o triangles used to aim have gone back to the initial position at the center of the gunsight...

Can you see it now?

If you have any doubts, please ask !!

I really appreciate the excelent work that you are doing in Steel Fury !!


Txema

Thank you Txema,

That is exactly correct.

When ranging from the various ammo types with the black triangle the strich move to the correct position to hit the target at the range set :)

Yeap.

OK, but we're talking abt PANTHER gunsight. What the reason to give me a sample of Pz IV D gunsight???

OK, I've read er explanations, but I still don't understand what do u mean. I gave my examples and gunsight for the Panther. They works good or at least u can use it. If u know what u're talking abt then I may help u and murkz with tutor how to make a gunsight. Feel free to ask me or let me know when I may provide u with a detailed info. Excuse me, but I should be very grateful, if u could do such gunsight for SF and show me how it does. As I told we did with 19will73 our best and I can't fix the things, which already works fine (as my point).

OK, Lockie, this point is difficult to explain and understand in a foreign language.

I think that the implementation that you have done of the Panther gunsight is already very good.

In my opinion, it is not really necessary to complicate the things for Steel Fury...

It is good enough for me  :)


Txema

I also understand what Murkz is talking about I keenly remember BritAldo44's gunsight tutorials.However I agree with Lockie that what we have, while imperfect and not entirely acurate, works fine.

Is it so hard to make right?

I don't know how to do it personally which is why I am a neutral stand.It's up to 19will73 to decide whether he wants to invest the time and effort to correct it.

I agree with everyone's respected opinions, my wish was to point out the new findings of Brit44Aldo and pass that information along to this community.

I also agree that as they are things are fine, it is probably just me but there is a feeling that Steel Fury would be better for the inclusion of this newly researched information.

I also understand that the implementation of the optics is down to a coder, alas something I have no knowledge of and if nothing else it has caused a healthy discussion :)

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank lockie and all Steel Fury modder's for the excellent work they have done and continue to do in pushing Steel Fury ahead.

Jeff

Good works murkz and frinik.  Thank you to all who give their time and effort to the game. 

And now a gunsight for the tiger also has triangles, which moves up and down together.
(http://s5.postimage.org/pli40l0ur/sight_tiger.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pli40l0ur/)

19will73 found a very funny arcade feature from SPM UU :) As it appeared 'Tiger II' has TWO gunsights (tzf9d, tzf9d1). Both of them unbreakable and has two scales: 2.5 and 5 :D I like this feature. May be I'll implement this arcade thing to all tanks ;) But firstly, I'd like to hear user's opinions - should we implement this feature or not.

As far as I know this worked from the beginning.  ???


For about 2 years already. This is the crude imitation of 2.5x and 5x magnification of the real sight. You should study Tiger optics.

Then, no need to be worry for u :)

Yeah, good arcade feature! But I prefer other thank to Tiger II.

U should use PM for the private suggestion.

Hi Lockie,

This is a very interesting and realistic feature !!

Actually all the latest german tanks had gunsights with dual magnification: 2.5x and 5x

When using those gunsights the gunner could choose to use the 2.5x magnification (for example to survey the battlefield to look for enemy tanks) and then swicht to 5x magnification (to aim precisely to hit a target enemy tank). The drawback of the 5x magnification was that its field of view was the field of view of the 2.5x magnification divided by 2, approximately.

The German tanks equiped with gunsights with dual magnification (2.5x and 5x) were:

- Panzer IV H
- Panzer IV J
- panther A
- panther G
- Tiger I Late model
- Tiger II

Please note that the Tiger I Early model did NOT have gunsight with dual magnification.

It would be great (and would increase realism level !!) if you could equip those german tanks with a gunsight with dual magnification where the gunner can choose between 2.5x and 5x magnification.

I would really like to have that realistic feature in Steel Fury !!  :)


Txema

Re the dual gunsight; I posted that more than 2 years ago. Nobody said anything about it.It's actually great to have it! I agree with Txema it makes sense to keep it.

Me too I am mystified by this issue of the Tiger gunsight.It always worked normally in the past with the triangles moving.I think the only issue raised by Murkz was ht esecond triangle in the reticle....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sIkQAas-WH4#t=4s

Best played in HD as the quality of the video is not to great in low quality.

Here is the correct movement of a TZF optic.

As you can see the gunner simply used the scale for which ever round was loaded and the he could rotate the optic in either direction (clockwise in this video)

This is done in PE with the range up or range down key and very easy and effective it is.

Jeff

Txema, thank u for er opinion. As my point, this feature will increase arcade level, coz instead one breakable gunsight a tank will get two unbreakable(with additional magnification), but I don't care abt it ;)

I didn't pay attention to er post, but now I think it'll be a good idea to equip a german tank with more gunsights as possible. (Though, I still think it's a very big arcade feature, which will give a player a good chance to cheat AI. IMHO, same happens, if we'll decrease armor for the trees and bushes. AI still won't shoot at player, cos he is invisible for the AI, but player can shoot without problem through trees and bushes ;) )

Here is the correct optic and movement for the Tiger I TZF. As you can see the movement is a work of art, to make the gunners job as easy as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VV2Os7XuZ0&feature=youtu.be

When he wanted to use the mg, he rolled that scale to the needle at the desired range :)

murkz, thank u for the new two video, which explains how does Panther gunsight. Now I know what did u tell abt :) It was hard for me to understand, now it's clear. As I see, it'll be a big headache for user to use such method of aiming, coz each time u've to rotate a gunsight a half-round right or a half-round left to pick up an appropriate shell. I don't think it's possible to realize in SF, but I'll ask 19will73 what is he opinion abt it and will it be possible to implement it.

IMHO, same happens, if we'll decrease armor for the trees and bushes. AI still won't shoot at player, cos he is invisible for the AI, but player can shoot without problem through trees and bushes )

Lockie, I think in all seriousness this is an excellent suggestions.The trees are simply too strong and unyielding in this game.A 68 ton Tiger II can swing on a tree limb.Yesterday while playing the JS-2 mission in the Combat Episodes I failed the mission within 2 minutes when my JS-2 struck a tree and flipped over.I tried the pressing the W and D keys for 3 minutes to get it back on track but too late the mission failed with tank destroyed :(
 THe tree should crack when rolled over by a tank not flip them over like broiled eggs....

U mean to decrease trees and bushes armor? That will be a good feature for the online mode, when u play against human, but for the stupid AI it'll be another reason to prove - human is much smarter :) I.e. now I've to wait when tank under AI will appear from the bushes, coz I know that my shell will get a ricochet. Thus, AI has a bit chanse to survive against my smart intellect  8) :)  ;D It's a pure balance to the profit of AI, imho.

As I know this bug was fixed for APOS, but for SF I don't know how to get it over.

You are welcome lockie.