Graviteam

Hi chaps,

I've been playing APOS on and off quite a bit lately. I've noticed that the German Infantry (maybe the same for the Russians) don't seem to have (or use) any weapons to tackle Russian armour. I've read plenty of accounts of KV and T-34 tanks trundling along through German lines and without being halted by anything but artillery, point blank fire to vulnerable areas eg. the rear or tracks etc. and I think this is well represented in the game. I've also read plenty of stories of infantry using telermines, stick grenade bundles and magnetic/sticky hollow charged weapons to combat tanks or at least disable them. I appreciate that these were desperate measures and that chances of success weren't always great but as it stands infantry just attack with firearms and ordinary stick grenades (on rare occasions) and generally get mowed down. Either infantry should refuse to attack a tank at all, approach stealthily using cover eg. in a town situation etc., run away or get up close and use whatever anti-tank weapons they have. I've seen a squad of german infantry surround a tank, fire at it with their small arms until the tank has shot them all to bits. Yesterday I had a solitary KV-1 tank roam through a village destroying everything in sight and my infantry were absolutely powerless to even attempt to disable it. Every time Russian armour appears it is more of less the kiss of death to whatever forces one has except for the very rare occasions when one has any armour.

I'm interested to hear what tactics you use with infantry vs tanks. I've tried stealthy approach, ambush, hunt etc. all without avail.

Thanks and regards

Aces

1st thing to do if forced to try and fight a tank with infantry is see if they have anything that can do the job.  JUst use the roll over function over ammo icon and it will display all their ammo types and arms.  Stick grenades are pretty useless for this task...  The 6 bundle if deployed lucky might disable a track and get a mobility kill.  If the squad has the HH3 grenade you might get lucky and disable or kill the tank.  But the squad if it has any HH3's will have vary few.  The only hope is to set up an ambush and get the tank to blunder into it.  It  is NOT likly to succeed.  Against heavy tanks best that can be hoped for is to disable it. 

But the poor bloodly infantry need to get backed up with something able to deal with tanks.  Other tanks.....at guns.....even howiters (on screen types).  MAking sure that anywhere I suspect I may get hit with anything heavy having at least an arty spotter or commander with arty is what I do.  But withdrawing, hiding your infantry, or whatever is probably a better solution than fighting tanks with them.  If you are defending a town and all that is being sent at you is a tank......  Hide the infantry in the town and order to hold fire.  The tank by itself should not be able to capture town.  Now if infantry is along with them......  Well they can dig your infantry out and get support from the tank.  Your in trouble!.  fleeing might be a better idea and regroup later to fight when you have the abilty to win ground and hold it. 

Have to always remember that there are 2 layers to the game.  It make be better to let the enemy attack and give ground and then next turn envelop them in the tactical map.  Cutting that unit off from supply. I did this with a tiger tank platoon once.  Let them in deep then shut the door behind them. 

Hi mate,

I'd settle for the occasional disabling of a tank or rather the chance of disabling a tank. I agree HH3's were rare, stick grenade bundles and T-mines not so much so. Engineers should have T-Mines on occasions. I'd be nice if German infantry could lob stick grenade bundles on the engine deck etc. or T-mines under the tracks once in a while.

Problem happens in scenarios with very few, if any, tanks or other anti-tank weapons so most of the time you end up with infantry units vs tanks especially the heavier models such as T-34 and KVs although the same applies to lighter tank and nothing to handle them if you give ground and let them pass by that's assuming that their tanks are happy not to seeks out and destroy your poor bloody infantry as they have nothing to give them a chance.

I think that the German infantry should posses at least a slight chance against armour especially in heavily wooded terrain and towns with plenty of concealment options to hand. I don't wish them to have unrealistic, super-human abilities but even when they do have HH3s (rarely) they tend not to use them even with the hold-fire order.

Cheers and regards

Aces

Yes all true....  :P 

As you know, IRL, tanks without close infantry support, especially buttoned down were very vulnerable in towns and dense vegetation etc.. but in the game they more or less seem to have full reign.

Very often I see enemy tanks massacring troops in very thick woods even during the night or early dawn hours, when it's still almost pitch black. How buttoned up tank crews are able to acquire their targets in those circumstances is beyond me.

WARNING SPOILER FOLLOWS!
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If you want to experience it on your own skin, a perfect example of this is Rakitnoe Operation played from the Soviet perspective. There's a platoon of Tiger tanks advancing through the woods on the 3rd Tank Army's 104 Infantry Brigade (western part of the map). Most of the time those tanks drive through narrow, dirt forest paths and if you place your troops to cut enemy advance with an ambush, those tanks behave almost like they had night vision goggles on their equipment checklist. Was it that easy for WW2 tankers to spot a human silhouette from within their vehicle that is surrounded by vegetation, trees and darkness?
Not to mention how do they manage to drive without their lights on. I've been to the woods at night a couple of times and I had trouble to even see my risen hand. Of course, there's the moonlight and all different lighting conditions bound with that, but there's still that buttoned up tank vision against human eye of a infantryman who is hiding behind some bushes or a tree.

Is this with alpha?  As it seems its pretty far the other way now (except with tiger).  ANd tiger tank I have questions about its spotting ability.  Seems way to good most of times even with skill level vary low. 

I agree German Inf against Russian tanks have no chance..the Russian Inf have molotov cocktails that help them out. I've noticed German

 Inf throwing grenade bundles at Russian inf rather than saving them for armour..also where are the teller mines etc?

I think it needs looking at..at the moment Russian Armour has a field day against German Inf as mentioned even in woods in the dark. Sometimes German Inf are close enough to get ontop of the tank and drop grenades into the hatches or at least use grenade bundles to disable it, but they've usually thrown all of them already at Infantry units..but hey just stand there waiting to be shot..

Yes it happens with alpha patch, even though Realistic View is enabled and all other settings are set to be most realistic.  ???

Referencing photos of German infantry standing on top of immobile Soviet tanks and trying to open the hatches with crowbars, I think the problems infantry faced in the period are well modeled by the game engine.

However, even though the campaigns may be historically accurate, I think that for game-play purposes it would be more interesting if both sides were given a force mix that supplies at least some tank, AT and other tools in every battle.

At least we should have an option to choose that a-historical force mix, IMO.

I recall this option is already there - look for option and disable 4.01 historical units. Maybe that does it (I've never tried)?

Yes this option expand available weapons and troops in pool.

yes, turning historical units off makes things interesting.  But al would also point out that German infantry units also have a marder vehicle many times.  If the german infantry unit looses it anit tank defense then it maybe time to pull out and figure something else out.  THe Red Army infantry usally have much less anti armor capability.  The KS fuel bomb thing is only effective againt half tracks, marders, and if vary lucky catching an unbuttoned tank.   RPG 40 anti tank hand grenade is pretty useless against later model pz3, 4's and stugs.  But gets the job done on halftracks, pz2, earlier pz3, and the like.  THe germans hh3 is MUCH better at killing t34's but it limited supply.  The rifle fired grenade K98 with grenade launcher the germans have is not good at all against t34 or kv1 but can easily kill t60 and t70.  Its a tactics game at battalion level right?  If your infantry are faced with fighting tanks why the hell are you not pulling them out and get somehting there that can do the job?  Try playing some of the Red army campaigns against the germans massive armored force.  Usually the german side is alot easier than Red Army.  Theres usually laot of manuver room on tactical map.  Pulling unit out either by moving before battle if you know there amount to get hit with tanks or fleeing even and then counter attacking nexr turn with better force before they can dig in is a better solution than doing this insane to the last man death stuff.  Germans vary often would jab, duck, pull back and then reattack when they had what they needed to get the mission done.  Just saying............... 

Yes all good advice Flashburn, but sometimes you just are involved in a Stalingrad situation.

LOL I did 2 hours ago....  Massed German armor against my infantry and 2 t34's.  Got slaughered BUT also got the armor to turn around by damaging the dang things with at rifles and an arty spotter that should get teh  hero of the soviet union medal.  LOL he was hiding in a trench surronded by tanks.  He then called in all arty on his possition.  :D  poor guy.  But the tanks turned around after that and the germans asked for a siece fire.   :P

Well had my depot just overrun by a mass of Matildas, so I also wonder if the infantry wouldn't improvise just about anything they could get to make some AT devices.
But it looks like we are stuck with grenades for now.
Of the grenades in the game I can identify the (M-24, RPG-40 and HHl 3 but what are G.L 3 and SZ-3?

I also wonder if the penetration values are correct, the Russian RPG-40 has 30 but I see sources talking of 20 what is more or less the same as the the German M-24 can do.
Also the HHl 3 seems weak, should have penetration of 140mm and not 85.

Here an overview of what was used:
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-grenades/index.html

Here is something really interesting, unfortunately in German but alone the drawings will show the various ways to attack a tank:
http://archiv.thingnetz.org/frei/Buecher%20vor%201945/H.Dv.%20469-4%20-%20Panzernahbekaempfung%20(1942).pdf

I'd imagine that the GL is the Geballte Ladung (m-24 stick grenade bundle)

Or it could be the 3Kg demolition charge of the same name.

The SZ is a mystery.

Regards

Aces

Edit: There is and SZ3 3Kg Russian demolition charge.

_Later_ version with improved conical shape by normal - yes. But not earler version on 30 degress slope.

GL 3 is Geballte Ladung 3 kg - German explosive charge.
SZ 3 is Russian ones.

BTW if demo charge is lucky enough to land on engine deck.....pretty dead tank :D  Ask me how I know. 

Okay, I'll bite :), how do you know then :)

A wet behind ears recruit here. I recently bought APOS + 3 DLC:s on gamersgate sale. I ran into exact same situation that you're discussing here and in some other threads. Namely, soviet tanks are fairly easily able to route german infantry even when they drive right next to the guys with no infantry escort and the soldiers are in bushes or whatever.

Yes, before panzerfaust the Heer infantryman had fairly limited options. This did NOT include the situation where popovs drive their buttoned up tanks to the hitting distance, however.

So there are two conflicting ideas .. Without RPGs AT-capability is limited .. Tanks are extremely vulnerable close up to infantry and never do that voluntarily. What happens in APOS is that the T-34s drive right next to the infantry squad and calmly rotate their turrents while picking off the guys one by one.

I assume the current impotence of infantry AT weapons is because otherwise they'd wipe out the tanks driving way too up close to soldiers voluntarily.

Germans poses best infantry AT capabilities yet, and most numerous. You need to know which units are equipped with such and which are not. Its the same as sending regular German infantry group to do "urban combat", forgetting that Submachineguns aren't that numerous in the German army, and especially in your regular group only platoon commander has it, leaving your troops under-equipped to deal with that impending problems.

And about tank driving to them gunning them down, its combination of duty and fear, you pipe down hoping you aren't spotted and mangled, and you can't run away leaving your comrades or even worse get gunned down by a tank (or impending supporting units), hoping someone will take that tank down, or that it will move out, and your group could continue its plan so that all can end well.

Sending troops without any AT capability to do forced scouting, should be closely followed up with running away from any vehicle it comes across.

Indeed if they get sooo close I would really like to see the infantry assault the tank.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZKbD2Turo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4eYO_0C5So
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M67dgSI-lMw

Sometimes tanks are so close that a soldier could simply jump up, climb on the tank and drop a grenade into the tank to finish it off.

Point is, tanks should either keep distance so they don't get into close combat range, or should drive OVER the infantry to crush them.
Their behavior to simply drive right INTO them, to park there and start spraying HE rounds and MG fire around it seems weird and that the infantry just lets it happen is even weirder.
That's why tanks usually don't attack infantry in areas like towns where they don't have the benefit of a free field of fire and distance to the enemy.


But still in these videos it's interesting to see that even tanks fight back with some "normal" anti infantry weapons like pistols & grenades.
I guess this must also be modeled if the anti-tank capability of the infantry is better modeled.

Also that the infantry tries to blind the tank with Titanium tetrachloride(that even can make the crew bail out because of its irritant capability) and smoke grenades, in the game could help to either attack a tank or get away from it.
Also the active and passive use of mines, in the game mines could be used passively like digging in when unit stays stationary for a longer period but also actively in close combat.
Maybe engineers or higher HQs could "build" minefields in areas where a defensive position is established, maybe those could be distributed the way conscripts or supplies are spread in the game.

Also you see that rear troops are also  capable of fighting off tanks that did break thru the forward lines with very improvised devices such as fuel canisters.

Speaking about propaganda and instructional videos of that period, here's an interesting one - Close Combat Against Russian Tanks. It's pretty long (9 parts):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW_k9PccvBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMGCY2Gy_k4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpe_cFQ8uyc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRWIz-6Z_Mg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApHjuX_fZW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DypTdy0Ntqo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGrmgNrr7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqu-51k1V-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ojB90DxAh0

erm..in game I find the Germans are impotent compared to the Russians and thats all down to the Molotov's..they usually use up their demo charges and grenade bundles etc on the Inf and never have them on hand then when the tanks are right next to them. It's the only time the game doesn't look right..loads of Germans hanging around a Russian Tank..sometimes right next to it waiting to be picked off..some are close enough to get ontop and drop grenades through view slits etc etc..

There doesn't seem to be a way to directly close assault the tanks either. 1st time this happened to me infantry escort was bombarded to submission so the tanks drove up to my guys who had their full load of grenade buschels and even right next to a platoon of engineers with all kinds of high explosives. Apparently close proximity to a tank suppresses the guys really badly and they cannot act.

Well first, get rid yourselves from usual "hollywood-style" strategy/rpg game paradigms.  ;)

First it must be admitted, that certain parts of (anti-tank) combat are left out, but those being very rare occasions of creative tank neutralization of the (trained) groups etc... There are no Soviet ground tarans (from pilots)...etc

Now, do you know fear of tank running towards your position (I did similar "training" in the ex.-socialist army, running towards the hole and tank going your way, needlessly to say people shitted their pants literally and I'll certainly never forget it, there was 0 danger), its presence, and you kissing the ground in terrifying fear of what is behind it, infantry or other enemy tanks coming? Is the tank pointed towards you, If I run will I be a traitor to my teammates or worse killed? Best thing you could hope for is a help from your own tanks, guns, comrades to help you survive as a team. Hoping in the wisdom of your commander ...etc  Because first and foremost thing of any soldier is self-preservation!

Throwing a demo charge while your comrades are around, possibly killing you in the process, in situation which is not yet so bleak (tank might pass, or stop spraying and leave, two second later Hans could come with his tanks...etc) draws certain moral situation which block you from doing such things. (there is specific psychology between soldiers in a unit...etc)

Also, you need to be sure that that unit is capable of harming a tank (not only by their name, soviets have engineers, they have almost no AT capability ;) ), plus how is their moral, fatigue and experience play PARAMOUNT role in deciding above mentioned problems.

@wodin
I said the same for Soviets, that they are impotent compared to the Germans   ;), but then I found out that I'm using those units completely wrong. Both sides have totally different styles of play! As soviet I usually wished for armored transports...etc (Btw, KS bottles are useless against more armored vehicles)

Perfect that is the movie that depicts the stuff from the file(H.Dv. 469-4 - Panzernahbekämpfung (1942)) I have posted earlier.

I just noticed your post with the PDF. Page 31 is great. Jump on a tank, hack the engine grille with an axe and toss a potato masher inside. :D I think these kind of books as well as propaganda films (like "Man Against Tanks" or the one I posted the link to) were written/filmed by guys who spent the entire war behind a desk. I mean... jump on a tank with an axe? Sounds easy for a guy smoking a Cuban cigar in a quiet office, but almost impossible to accomplish for a soldier that sees tracked-death approaching his position. I guess...
Anyway thanks for digging this document out. Very interesting book.

Of course a lot situations in those films & books are depicted in a much easier way than it really was but I'm sure that everything that was shown was also done in the war, of course it depends on the circumstances, if there is no supporting infantry and the tank is blinded it may work to jump on it hand hack your way thru the engine grill.

@RedC
Good points but those things you mentioned should be covered by the values that the infantry has in the game, experiences & moral, sure a unit with low moral and green soldiers in it won't be effective in anti-tank combat, but a veteran unit with the nerves & experience is surely capable of taking out a tank in one way or another.

I didn't mean to say that tactics described in the book were not used in the field. I just found that particular one hard to resist no to pick on. It's concept is ridiculous. If there were actual cases of German troopers axing and potato mashing a tank, then I think those guys should have been given a fully featured Knight's Crosses (with leaves, swords and diamonds) and immediately transferred to Berlin for propaganda purposes. The lame Joseph would have a lot to write and babble about to increase the morale on the home front.

Unless you were in special forces, you'd pretty much qualify as "conscripts" in game terms. The men depicted in the game are veterans or even crack troops who have seen a lot of combat. Seeing (and surviving!) battle where other people are actively trying to kill you is a life-changing experience. In WWII times only about 25% of soldiers in fact used their weapons in combat. Many of those guys would classify as natural born killers - Improved weapons training increased that figure to about 90% in Vietnam but then you have other issues like people spraying the entire clip to jungle in one go. I've only been near APCs in real life and they're mostly intimidating because of being big noisy things that tend to run over you because the driver can't see much. Button up and the crew has almost no visibility except straight ahead and whatever the turret is pointing at. I'm sure panzer grenadiers or tankodesantiki would be a lot less intimidated as they're literally riding the tanks to combat.

In any case a minority of people can keep their head under extreme stress, another minority freezes and the normal guys pretty much hide/run away/panic.

As far as the expectations of the Fuhrer go, I posted a little gem of helpful hints here
http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11178.msg32219#msg32219

The idea of rhyme & cartoon for training manuals has some interesting forms in WW2 Germany.  The idea of a Tiger tank as a hot girl for one.
http://usmbooks.com/tigerfibel.html (http://usmbooks.com/tigerfibel.html)

I think one reason the tanks are so good close up against infantry is the borg spotting. Buttoned up KV-1 seems uncannily easily aware some guys who were hiding in bushes are assaulting the tank from side/rear. I've seen tanks do funky manouvers like rotate hull + turret simultaneously to point the coax gun at soldiers behind the tank.

The point aren't the skill, anyone can pull the trigger. The point is to live. And no one more then veterans know how to survive, after all its the only point in war, and the reason they are still breathing.

Well I don't know what kind of euphoria there is in western society about "special forces" and practical perspective of wars, but you can be sure that being pushed to the end, and fighting back for your own life is a life changing experience, you would see countless of profiles becoming killers in most gruesome way, not because they were "natural born killers" but because of the circumstance they were in, because of self-preservation. And no recorded history carries such an experience then the Eastern front. After all German army was the aggressor and invader, while Soviets fought for their homes and loved ones in fullest non-hollywoodish sense, so even in the beginning its totally different moral situation (not talking about emotional combat ecstasy). From that basis mix with different combat situations, and etc...
In war veterans differ from regular people, not only because they surpassed baptism of fire, but because they learned to survive, to listen and understand, and in the end, to know their fate in the upcoming operations. It was the German MG veterans who were afraid to open fire unless when absolutely needed in field, in fear of getting killed, they were veteran T-34 crews that waited silently in ambush for the enemy to come closer in even if their comrade's tank was blown 10 meters away.

Don't worry not only KV does that :). Well only thing tanks had problem with was blind zones (around them) of fire. They had plenty of observation posts (have you ever looked trough any?) on a tank, so no one can escape easily... But there comes another problem, why can't infantry damage the observation ports with usually rounds? Its not added even as a feature.

There is a reason that most tank commanders risked death by keeping their heads out of the hatches.  That's because the visiblity from the view slits was not good enough for proper situational awareness, in their experienced opinion. 

There were not only blind zones of fire but also blind zones of observation, that's for sure.
Despite all these "viewing points" visibility and awareness once the hatches were closed was miserable.

It is not a feature....BUt no reason I can see why it could not be added.  Other than being Vary annoying and time to do.  But even if made a feature, honestly would not add much. 

It was added in Steel Fury (at least explosions could damage view slits of player's tank), so it's possible it's added in APOS as well. I doubt it though, because I've never seen it in damage reports nor I remember seeing it in SABOW (except for optics).

All sights and optics can be damaged in GTOS/SABOW from APK43 times. And soldiers and MGs shots to optics in tanks or armored vehicles.

Well I stand corrected.  I assumed that since in SABOW I never had or saw damaged view devices it was not present.  Ya in K42 I do remember this vary well. 

(much) Better training and by far better stock of soldiers to work with, seeing these guys are "handpicked" from the regular troops. It's again this minority of people who can act rationally under extreme stress. Plus of course do exceptionally well in physical and mental tasks soldiers require. In our drafted army which trains majority of the fit male populace, jaegers get adequate training, guerillas pretty good and 2nd line troops such as transportation not so much.


You misunderstand. Some people are just naturally good killers, there is no need to "quote" it. Of course it's not about killing, it's about resistance to stress, lessened self preservation and other qualities. It's also about as unusual as being left-handed, or a boxer who's very difficult to knock out. I do not really mean (only) psychopaths either although they tend to do naturally well in dangerous professions.. It is possible to train people to act in a certain way through rigorous training, just as americans have managed to get majority of infantrymen to use their weapon in anger. Even if you have the nerves, you may just suck at soldiering otherwise too.

You also do not have enough eyeballs inside the tank to keep an eye on each little slot considering you have a tank to run! Something like stryker with a platoon of soldiers peering out of shooting ports is a bit different.